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DKL



Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1838
Location: California, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:16 am Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:


Bah, motivation can be a pain when it comes to taking a long hard look and analyzing works of fiction like these. Personally I still don't know how you were able to delve so far into Monster like you did.



And it was all to develop one single theory I now use everytime I wanna explain the series... pretty sweet...

But yeah... I have a lot of free time.

ANYWAY, thought that I'd like to throw one more thing on the table:

In keeping with the theme of "change," I liked that one scene near the end where Ichise finally accepts his Texhnolyze limbs as his own...

That was a REALLY good one... though, it wasn't very obvious to me before for some reason.

Also... something's been bothering me for the longest time...

I don't know if I asked it before, but remember that stuff Yoshi was decked out in?

And remember how he said it wasn't Texhnolyze?

So... what was it? Was he born like that? Or is that some modification stuff that people on the surface do?

But then... it could be anything... I mean, a lot of the stuff from the surface was really abstract and mysterious, when you think about it.

Uh... yeah, that's all I got for now.
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HellKorn



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:17 pm Reply with quote
DKL wrote:
In keeping with the theme of "change," I liked that one scene near the end where Ichise finally accepts his Texhnolyze limbs as his own...


His acceptance of it is key, really. Kimata of the Alliance wasn't willing to accept Texhnolyzed limbs. We saw how that turned out.

It goes on about the whole factor of duality in series. spoiler[You need to embrace your human side and accept that technological advancements are going to happen. If you reject them, then you'll simply fall behind.]

Quote:
I don't know if I asked it before, but remember that stuff Yoshi was decked out in?

And remember how he said it wasn't Texhnolyze?

So... what was it? Was he born like that? Or is that some modification stuff that people on the surface do?


spoiler[It was a modification to artificial limbs that people on the surface world do, apparently. There was also another case of this later on in the series when Ichise is about to descend back to Lukuss and the blocky, rather ugly supports show up on that man's leg (name slips my mind at the moment).]
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DKL



Joined: 08 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:05 am Reply with quote
Yeah, I remember those things...

Man, did they look Ghetto (purposely, I mean... it was really detailed, if anything).
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lazybastard



Joined: 18 May 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 7:33 pm Reply with quote
The first 10 episodes were pretty good. Then they killed off the only remotely interesting character (Yoshi) and the show went down hill real fast. The worst was the half-baked ending.

Now, I don't really have anything against the kill-all-main-characters ending some of the posters here. Provided that its well planned-out and foreshadowed early in the show; for example in Wolf's Rain. But this ending just reeked of Deus Ex Machina: Mysterious villan shows up out of nowhere with an army of insect-like cyborgs during the last third of the show. Random henchman kills Shinji then turns the gun on himself for no reason. Angry mob conveniently gathers to facilitate the dramatic death of Onishi, then the director remembers "oh crap, humans were supposed to go extinct, we can't have mobs roaming around" so the main character come and kills the whole mob (with his malfunctioning limbs working again at the EXACT right time).... Yea, you get the picture.

Some of the supposed symbolism in this show is pretty poorly done as well. I noticed that some of the previous poster said that the main character Ichise, was supposed to symbolize humanity's instinct for survival. Now he's behavior in the show is almost the exact opposite. A stray dog survives because its instinct knows when to fight, and when to run or hide. Ichise is more like a rabid dog, lashing out at the first thing he sees, which more often then not happens to be biting the hand that feeds. Well, everyone knows that a rabid dog like that don't have a good life expectancy. Likewise with Ichise. He loses an arm and leg when he could have gotten away with losing just the arm. He could have gotten his revenge by waiting patiently and ambushing that Yakuza car in a narrow alley; instead he rushes in blindly and end up beat up, shot, wanged on the head, and dropped down the sewer. What exactly is the show trying to convey to us? That humans are too stupid to survive? Since that's the only thing you can get from the way the main character is portrayed.

The idea of those Texhnolyzed humans been rooted to the ground as the next step in the evolution is also problematic. Towards the end, with most of the characters dead, Ichise takes the battery of one of plant-like humans to power his own arm and leg. The plant-like human, (either a former Organo or Union member, don't remember which) did not have the ability to resist. Nor did he have the will to resist, saying something along the lines of "this is the nineth level of hell" and just waiting there to die. So what is the point of this anime? That humans are unable to survive, no matter what form we choose to take?

Edit: Dammit, somebody teach this newbie how to use spoiler tags.


Last edited by lazybastard on Fri May 18, 2007 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HellKorn



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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 8:32 pm Reply with quote
Kill the spoiler tags, I guess?

Warning: lazy responses ahead. I'm tired.

lazybastard wrote:
Now, I don't really have anything against the kill-all-main-characters ending some of the posters here. Provided that its well planned-out and foreshadowed early in the show; for example in Wolf's Rain.


Uh, Texhnolyze didn't foreshadow humanity's end? Sure, it didn't blatantly flaunt it, but nothing at all?

Quote:
But this ending just reeked of Deus Ex Machina: Mysterious villan shows up out of nowhere with an army of insect-like cyborgs during the last third of the show.


"Show up out of nowhere"? The Class was mentioned early on to establish a sort of controlling entity. I don't remember the first episode that Kano showed up in, but he didn't suddenly magically enter into the plot.

Quote:
Random henchman kills Shinji then turns the gun on himself for no reason.


Reason? I dunno. Maybe he didn't want to end up as a Shape? He had fulfilled his duty? It seems rather irrelevant to the big picture.

Quote:
Angry mob conveniently gathers to facilitate the dramatic death of Onishi, then the director remembers "oh crap, humans were supposed to go extinct, we can't have mobs roaming around" so the main character come and kills the whole mob (with his malfunctioning limbs working again at the EXACT right time).... Yea, you get the picture.


Doc essentially became an entity like the class. In turn we see her appear and activate Ichise's malfunctioning limbs.

Quote:
What exactly is the show trying to convey to us? That humans are too stupid to survive? Since that's the only thing you can get from the way the main character is portrayed.


Ichise was raised in a harsh environment. His father was framed and killed when he was young. His mother soon thereafter. At the beginning, we see him lost, uncertain of his purpose in life, and practically no regard for it. He's doesn't care for others. While on a larger level he does represent humanity, or rather a portion of it like the other characters, what is of even more importance is him as an individuall, which is addressed at the bottom of the post.

Quote:
The plant-like human, (either a former Organo or Union member, don't remember which) did not have the ability to resist.


Organo member.

Quote:
Nor did he have the will to resist, saying something along the lines of "this is the nineth level of hell" and just waiting there to die.


Reference to the hell of repetition. Or something else. Might have what little knowledge of Buddhism I have confused here.

Quote:
So what is the point of this anime? That humans are unable to survive, no matter what form we choose to take?


Again, since I'm feeling lazy, I find that the following sums up what Texhnolyze is about perfectly:

Quote:
Anyone who reaches the end of this series and doesn't expect things to go badly wrong has probably been taking hard drugs or somehow otherwise distracting themselves. Episode 13 made it quite clear that a bleak future was in store for Ichise and by extention much of Lukuss. But the extent of that and the fact that it spells the end of the human race as it has been only really became clear last volume when finally the surface world was involved in the story.

Of course it can't really be a tragedy if the future is immutably decided, there has to be a hope of avoiding the impending storm, and the series has been at great pains to show us that despite Ran predicting an event that her predictions are fallible - they can be thwarted. The whole saving of the Sage of Gabe at the start of the series shows us this. We see, from Ran's subjective viewpoint, exactly what the vision reveals to her and thanks to Yoshi's actions it fails to come to pass. But at the same time the series is deeply mired in showing that human nature itself will cause the events to come crashing to an end no matter what you do.

This I think is one of the big things that I have been half right about. Texhnolyze has indeed been about how to live, but not so much in trying to show us the right way to live but to show us that every approach is flawed and ultimately doomed to fail. Perversely the very destruction wrought by all these competing ways of life brings with it the seeds of renewal and in classic Buddhist form is neither a bad or good thing. Merely an expression of change which is the cornerstone of Samsara.

[snipped]

So what do we take from this series?

It is easy to see the tragic nature of the tale being told and find it moving yet also depressing. After all the story is literally about the absolute failiure of humanity to find a way to overcome it's own failings and thrive. But the stories core protagonist, Ichise, does exactly that. He changes from an entirely self absorbed and angry individual into someone who has selflessly tried to save another being's pain, namely Ran whom he wanted to bring to the surface world so that her precognative abilities wouldn't trouble her with such violent premonitions. Even at the end as he realises he has doomed himself while also being unable to help Ran at all he performs one last act of respect and gives Ran a proper burial - so that she might gain rest in the next life. He is a profoundly changed man from grief stricken individualist we saw at the start of the series.


Which more or less covers it.

And, uh, to anyone who cares: I mentioned earlier that I plan on doing a massive analysis thread on Texhnolyze along with Haibane Renmei this summer, so I'd ask that you treat this thread more or less as one used solely for reference on some points as there were a lot of ideas that I was either not fully exploring or simply off on.
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lazybastard



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 9:27 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
Kill the spoiler tags, I guess?

Warning: lazy responses ahead. I'm tired.

lazybastard wrote:
Now, I don't really have anything against the kill-all-main-characters ending some of the posters here. Provided that its well planned-out and foreshadowed early in the show; for example in Wolf's Rain.


Uh, Texhnolyze didn't foreshadow humanity's end? Sure, it didn't blatantly flaunt it, but nothing at all?

Nope. Lukuss was a harsh and brutal place, yet full of life. The character Yoshi actually drove this point home pretty well. All the conflict and harshness within Lukuss was also made it citizens so much more alive.

HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
But this ending just reeked of Deus Ex Machina: Mysterious villan shows up out of nowhere with an army of insect-like cyborgs during the last third of the show.


"Show up out of nowhere"? The Class was mentioned early on to establish a sort of controlling entity. I don't remember the first episode that Kano showed up in, but he didn't suddenly magically enter into the plot.

There is one scene where we see Kano get Onishi's legs. Other than that, are we shown who Kano is? What's his position within the hierarchy of the Class that allowed him to build his little robot army with impunity? Were we shown the internal power struggle withing the Class that drove Kano to turn against his mother/s? Nada. He's just the generic mysterious bad guy brought in because the creators didn't know how to end the show. Deus Ex Machina.

HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
Random henchman kills Shinji then turns the gun on himself for no reason.


Reason? I dunno. Maybe he didn't want to end up as a Shape? He had fulfilled his duty? It seems rather irrelevant to the big picture.

Your response here applies well to most of the other plot points as well. Reason? Who needs a reason.

HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
Angry mob conveniently gathers to facilitate the dramatic death of Onishi, then the director remembers "oh crap, humans were supposed to go extinct, we can't have mobs roaming around" so the main character come and kills the whole mob (with his malfunctioning limbs working again at the EXACT right time).... Yea, you get the picture.


Doc essentially became an entity like the class. In turn we see her appear and activate Ichise's malfunctioning limbs.

Typical case of Deus Ex Machina.

HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
What exactly is the show trying to convey to us? That humans are too stupid to survive? Since that's the only thing you can get from the way the main character is portrayed.


Ichise was raised in a harsh environment. His father was framed and killed when he was young. His mother soon thereafter. At the beginning, we see him lost, uncertain of his purpose in life, and practically no regard for it. He's doesn't care for others. While on a larger level he does represent humanity, or rather a portion of it like the other characters, what is of even more importance is him as an individuall, which is addressed at the bottom of the post.

And what do we see at the end? He's still got no purpose in life, and no regard for it. Still just happily punching away at the closest thing he sees.

HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
Nor did he have the will to resist, saying something along the lines of "this is the nineth level of hell" and just waiting there to die.


Reference to the hell of repetition. Or something else. Might have what little knowledge of Buddhism I have confused here.

Or it might be 9th level of hell from Dante. Doesn't matter. The point is that the plant-like life form was also an evolutionary dead end.

HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
So what is the point of this anime? That humans are unable to survive, no matter what form we choose to take?


Again, since I'm feeling lazy, I find that the following sums up what Texhnolyze is about perfectly:

I don't see how you got the idea that:
"it can't really be a tragedy if the future is immutably decided, there has to be a hope of avoiding the impending storm"
It ain't a tragedy at all if it can be avoided. The whole point of tragedy is that no matter what choices you make, fate always seems to conspire against you and make the choice you made the wrong one. What tragedy is there in Texhnolyze? The Seer FORETOLD that Ichise actions might doom them all. What did she do to try to prevent that possible future? Did she try to kill Ichise, or even easier - let his stupidity led to his own death. Thereby avoiding the doom that lay down the road? Nope, the exact opposite. She saved Ichise and repeatedly looked after him so that he COULD bring about the end of humanity as the Seer foretold. The only one who actually tried to SAVE Lukuss from its fate was the outsider Yoshi. He was trying to tap into the brutality and animal-like instinct that made the citizens of Lukuss so ALIVE, all the while trying to forge a leader capable of uniting Lukuss through the baptism by fire that is a Spectacle. In many ways Yoshi was a sort of messiah figure for Lukuss, coming from the outside to save the city from the fate set upon it by the Seer. After his death, the only thing left for Lukuss is to follow the Seer blindly to the doom she has set.

There was a reason that episode 10, the one where Yoshi died, was titled Conclusion. Cause the story really ended there. The only thing left for the show after that was to wander around aimlessly and then die.
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HellKorn



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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 10:21 pm Reply with quote
lazybastard wrote:
Nope. Lukuss was a harsh and brutal place, yet full of life. The character Yoshi actually drove this point home pretty well. All the conflict and harshness within Lukuss was also made it citizens so much more alive.


Yeah, in contrast to what we saw in the surface world. But because you have life thriving doesn't mean that it's guranteed to continue on forever. In the surface world life will slowly burn out like a flame. In Lukuss it will explode into chaos and eventually destroy itself.

Quote:
But this ending just reeked of Deus Ex Machina: Mysterious villan shows up out of nowhere with an army of insect-like cyborgs during the last third of the show. There is one scene where we see Kano get Onishi's legs. Other than that, are we shown who Kano is? What's his position within the hierarchy of the Class that allowed him to build his little robot army with impunity?


The son of the Mothers, who evidently hold high authority, if not the highest authority in the Class. Evidently Kano falls under them.

Quote:
Were we shown the internal power struggle withing the Class that drove Kano to turn against his mother/s?


Kano says himself that he wanted to see how far Texhnolyze could take humanity, but with what he saw around him he came to the conclusion that humans only knew of violence and destruction. He then saw it fit to create the Shapes because humans could not progress on their own.

Quote:
[disatisfaction snipped]


So do you take Kano's rantings before Ichise kills him to hold truth or not?

Quote:
And what do we see at the end? He's still got no purpose in life, and no regard for it.


You didn't really get the quote, did you? Ichise did come to care for life, and did come to an understanding of it. In Ran he saw a chance to save a life, something that he was unable to do years ago with his mother's passing. He wanted to bring her to the surface, to free her from her visions. He realized that you have to make throw away seflish desires that ultimately give you no gain (which the Organo failed to do). More importantly, for someone who so rejected his texhnolyzed limbs, he came to accept them as a part of himself in order to obtain that needed balance (which Kimata and the Alliance failed to do). Doc had created the perfect texhnolyzed limbs, but everything else that was to bring death and destruction had already fallen into place before the needed changes could be established.

Quote:
Or it might be 9th level of hell from Dante. Doesn't matter.


It does because there is no Christian symbolism in Texhnolyze.

Quote:
The point is that the plant-like life form was also an evolutionary dead end.


Ran made the Shapes take root so whatever potential the they had were negated. She basically screwed up Kano's plan in more ways than one.

Quote:
It ain't a tragedy at all if it can be avoided. The whole point of tragedy is that no matter what choices you make, fate always seems to conspire against you and make the choice you made the wrong one.


Part of what we're to get the show is that because of humanity's behavior we cannot change the outcome of where all of our lives, our species is headed. Our nature doesn't permit this because as a whole we are too massively flawed to make the required changes our own to better ourselves. Because of this it is inevitable that we are doomed to that fate.

Quote:
She saved Ichise and repeatedly looked after him so that he COULD bring about the end of humanity as the Seer foretold.


She herself did not know for certain that it was unavoidable. She obviously did not want humanity to die out. Ichise himself is not the sole cause for the downfall of Lukuss. He was important, yes, but so was Onishi, Shinji, Kano, Kimata, the Elder of Gabe, and all of the five factions that followed these men. Ichise's actions did not singlehandedly dictate the destruction that ensued.

Quote:
In many ways Yoshi was a sort of messiah figure for Lukuss, coming from the outside to save the city from the fate set upon it by the Seer. After his death, the only thing left for Lukuss is to follow the Seer blindly to the doom she has set.


Except Ran didn't choose it at all nor did her actions play an ultimate role in having Lukuss destroyed. Again, the actions of those around her played a far greater important part, and you can't honestly expect her to go about killing all of those who would instigate this.

Edit: Unfinished thought at the end.
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lazybastard



Joined: 18 May 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 11:28 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
lazybastard wrote:
Nope. Lukuss was a harsh and brutal place, yet full of life. The character Yoshi actually drove this point home pretty well. All the conflict and harshness within Lukuss was also made it citizens so much more alive.


Yeah, in contrast to what we saw in the surface world. But because you have life thriving doesn't mean that it's guranteed to continue on forever. In the surface world life will slowly burn out like a flame. In Lukuss it will explode into chaos and eventually destroy itself.

What makes you think that in Lukuss life will eventually destroy itself? What's to prevent the mobs roaming around Lukuss from scavanging the remains of the Shapes like Ichise had done? What's to prevent them from breaking out onto the surface? What? they'll just conveniently lie down to like Ichise or the plant-like Shapes?

HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
But this ending just reeked of Deus Ex Machina: Mysterious villan shows up out of nowhere with an army of insect-like cyborgs during the last third of the show. There is one scene where we see Kano get Onishi's legs. Other than that, are we shown who Kano is? What's his position within the hierarchy of the Class that allowed him to build his little robot army with impunity?


The son of the Mothers, who evidently hold high authority, if not the highest authority in the Class. Evidently Kano falls under them.

So Kano is basically the stereotypical spoiled brat out to destroy the world?

HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
Were we shown the internal power struggle withing the Class that drove Kano to turn against his mother/s?


Kano says himself that he wanted to see how far Texhnolyze could take humanity, but with what he saw around him he came to the conclusion that humans only knew of violence and destruction. He then saw it fit to create the Shapes because humans could not progress on their own.

That makes no sense. How is evolution possible without conflict and competition?

HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
[disatisfaction snipped]


So do you take Kano's rantings before Ichise kills him to hold truth or not?

Kano's ranting were nothing more than the typical psychobabble found in this genre. The events in the city were proving him wrong. Humans still roamed around in armed bands, his Shapes were nothing more than dead meat waiting vultures.

HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
And what do we see at the end? He's still got no purpose in life, and no regard for it.


You didn't really get the quote, did you? Ichise did come to care for life, and did come to an understanding of it. In Ran he saw a chance to save a life, something that he was unable to do years ago with his mother's passing. He wanted to bring her to the surface, to free her from her visions. He realized that you have to make throw away seflish desires that ultimately give you no gain (which the Organo failed to do). More importantly, for someone who so rejected his texhnolyzed limbs, he came to accept them as a part of himself in order to obtain that needed balance (which Kimata and the Alliance failed to do). Doc had created the perfect texhnolyzed limbs, but everything else that was to bring death and destruction had already fallen into place before the needed changes could be established.

What was Ichise trying to do? bring Ran to the surface where he already knows only death awaits?

HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
Or it might be 9th level of hell from Dante. Doesn't matter.


It does because there is no Christian symbolism in Texhnolyze.

What makes you so sure? Perhaps you just don't see it.

HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
It ain't a tragedy at all if it can be avoided. The whole point of tragedy is that no matter what choices you make, fate always seems to conspire against you and make the choice you made the wrong one.


Part of what we're to get the show is that because of humanity's behavior we cannot change the outcome of where all of our lives, our species is headed. Our nature doesn't permit this because as a whole we are too massively flawed to make the required changes our own to better ourselves. Because of this it is inevitable that we are doomed to that fate.

We cannot better ourselves because we are flawed? It's more like the other way around. Because we are flawed, there's room for improvement. On the other hand, if we are perfect, then our evolution has reached a dead end since there is no more room for improvement.

HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
She saved Ichise and repeatedly looked after him so that he COULD bring about the end of humanity as the Seer foretold.


She herself did not know for certain that it was unavoidable. She obviously did not want humanity to die out. Ichise himself is not the sole cause for the downfall of Lukuss. He was important, yes, but so was Onishi, Shinji, Kano, Kimata, the Elder of Gabe, and all of the five factions that followed these men. Ichise's actions did not singlehandedly dictate the destruction that ensued.

Ran did not want humanity to die out? What part of her actions support that? She saw the future, then gave out just the right amount of information so that Ichise etc. fulfilled their part in the destruction that she forsaw.

HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
In many ways Yoshi was a sort of messiah figure for Lukuss, coming from the outside to save the city from the fate set upon it by the Seer. After his death, the only thing left for Lukuss is to follow the Seer blindly to the doom she has set.


Except Ran didn't choose it at all nor did her actions play an ultimate role in having Lukuss destroyed. Again, the actions of those around her played a far greater important part, and you can't honestly expect her to go about killing all of those who would instigate this.

What about rescuing Ichise from the sewer, knowing his role in fracturing the Organo. Or having that Organo guy betray and try to assasinate Onishi, crippling the Organo at a critical junction? It seems more like she was manipulating things behind the scenes the ending she forsaw did come to pass.
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:13 am Reply with quote
lazybastard wrote:
more stuff


I'm practically never in the mood to continue on with never-ending debates/arguments over threads on a forum, since more often than naught it's too draining in the long run. This isn't an exception. Interpretating, misinterpreting, not getting characters, undermining points, etc. is simply pointless banter.

However, I've continued on with pointless banter before through PMs, and am still more than welcome to do so. Send me one if you want to continue to argue on. I'll get back to ya at some point.
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lazybastard



Joined: 18 May 2007
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 10:17 am Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
I'm practically never in the mood to continue on with never-ending debates/arguments over threads on a forum, since more often than naught it's too draining in the long run. This isn't an exception. Interpretating, misinterpreting, not getting characters, undermining points, etc. is simply pointless banter.

However, I've continued on with pointless banter before through PMs, and am still more than welcome to do so. Send me one if you want to continue to argue on. I'll get back to ya at some point.

I'm just throwing out another possible interpretation of the show here. Enough plot holes exists in the show to allow many many different ways to interpret what's going on. So far this this thread has only addressed that from one viewpoint. If you think it's pointless banter, then stop replying; instead of acting so high-and-mighty.
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HellKorn



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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 1:06 pm Reply with quote
Edit: Completely forgot about this thing until I checked out this thread.

Just decided "eh, what the hell" and decided to reply.

lazybastard wrote:
What makes you think that in Lukuss life will eventually destroy itself?


Oh, I dunno, the general chaos that was tearing the city apart? There's a line between the competitive violence that, say, Yoshii was instigating and absolute anarchy with no resolution but the end of all things in sight.

Quote:
What's to prevent the mobs roaming around Lukuss from scavanging the remains of the Shapes like Ichise had done? What's to prevent them from breaking out onto the surface? What? they'll just conveniently lie down to like Ichise or the plant-like Shapes?


The only signs of life that we saw was in the final episode was recapping Onishi getting gunned down by the last mob around the city. They were the last ones left.

Also, Ran rooted the Shapes when she was still a part of the obelisk that controlled texhnolyzed... technology, for a lack of a better term. As the Shapes were born out of the research that Doc had done on texhnolyzed limbs, they were also put in that state. The only one she left with movement at all was Ichise. The Shapes didn't have any real say in this. The plans that Kano had for them were destroyed by Ran's intervention.

Quote:
So Kano is basically the stereotypical spoiled brat out to destroy the world?


No. Try on that Kano wanted to further humanity's evolution by using what he could of Doc's research, no matter what others thought of it? He saw the potential there but his methods going about it are flawed. There's an important point to consider, here, and I think this sums it up the best in regards to the ending and the fact that Kano was birthed to be center for Lukuss:

GigaSheep wrote:
Kanno then explains that being texhnolyze showed him that we could escape death through exodus into the mind. He then says that Lux is the inside of his mind and that everyone there, despite what they might think, is just an illusion not bound by genes or physical concerns. Kanno then explains that ever since he was Texhnolyzed, he freed everyone from the mortal limits of genes because it let even him exist 100% in Lux, without any need for the real, 'physical' world. His imaginary world could then run wild forever, living out everything in the mind just like Kohagura said.

Ultimately, Ichise freaks out and kills Kanno, killing himself. This ends the world, in a kind of metaphysical suicide. In a way, then, Kanno kills himself in an echo of what might happen to the human race.

We can assume that the reason he muted and merged Ran was because she was the one who was driving him insane, and insanity is the ultimate danger to the mind beyond the physical. Ran can be seen as the embodiment of Kanno's imagination, Theoria, that divine spark of vision and inspiration that the Theonormals lack. In episode 21 it is even said that Theoria created the world of Lux. We can interpret this creation as the imagination and perception of the world. Ultimately, though, Kanno's transcendent imagination (Ran) and his earthly human nature (Ichise) are the death of him.


Something also important to consider about Kano, and Doc as well:

Philip R. Banks wrote:
Kano seems to represent the archetype of progress being used to dominate the natural world rather than live with it. His preoccupation with reordering and tinkering with everything has now entered into full blown obsession as he tinkers madly with everything heedless of the cost. He has become the archetype of progress for progress' sake and shows that while Doc was equally as driven she at least had a tempering goal in that while she sought to improve on nature she didn't want to do at the expense of human nature itself. Watch her instructions to Ichise to hold her and she tells you point blank that her technology was never meant to be used purely for destructive or overpowering ends - rather it was meant to be a supplement to life enabling the formerly disabled to not only overcome their disability but to infact extend themselves in new ways whilst still being quite human.

Kano has completely lost sight of that now. His madness is going to be the catalyst that forces Ichise to fulfill the predictions Ran has made for him. He will be forced to destroy the Obelisk knowing full well that this will doom anyone who is Texhnolyzed like himself to prevent Kano's mad schemes. The signs augur that events have gone badly in Lukuss while Ichise and the Doc have been on the surface.


lazybastard wrote:
That makes no sense. How is evolution possible without conflict and competition?


Violence can create new things as much as it destroys the old, but there's also the possibility that too much of it can destroy. It is also not the only means of evolution/progress.

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Kano's ranting were nothing more than the typical psychobabble found in this genre. The events in the city were proving him wrong. Humans still roamed around in armed bands, his Shapes were nothing more than dead meat waiting vultures.


See above.

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What was Ichise trying to do? bring Ran to the surface where he already knows only death awaits?


Death awaited her down in Lukuss as well. Going to the surface allowed the possibility of a "transient existence," as we see with the Theonormals, and Doc at the end. Yes, there could be no more progress than that, but taking a chance and choosing a place where life is listless yet peaceful versus one filled with hopelessness and true death is better.

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What makes you so sure? Perhaps you just don't see it.


Because there is absolutely no indication to anything Christian? Texhnolyze is the anime that is most heavily influenced by Buddhism that I've come across (unless I'm missing some points with the other three ABe anime series). From the color symbolism with the characters' eyes to the hungry ghost design of the shapes to Ran's lotus flower to Lukuss representing the Hell of Repetition to name of the group "Rakan" to Ichise's enlightenment to the surface world similarities with the Deva Realm... I could go on.

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We cannot better ourselves because we are flawed? It's more like the other way around. Because we are flawed, there's room for improvement.


Which is what Kano strove for with creating the Shapes based on Doc's research, but he failed to obtain it with Ran rooting them.

Now then, why did it lead to that point? Because Kano could only reach those who lived in Lukuss by resorting to violence -- at least as he, and others such as Yoshii saw it. Yet it went too far and those that did not want to embrace that change, to not be taken over and ruled so completely, fought back. There was nothing left other than ruins, the Shapes, and the surface world. He had done attempted all of this progress for the sake of progress, not for true benefit of helping humans. Ran saw this and rooted them. Throw this in with the Organo's constant desire to satisfy their own egos, the Union's inability to accept texhnolyzed body parts, the Racan's stubborness to properly work together as a group, and the Theonormals apathy to the situation at large and the outcome is a tragic one.

Bottom line: as are flawed there is potential there but because our methods to reach it our flawed we cannot obtain it as humanity cannot fully come together to appreciate a balance.

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On the other hand, if we are perfect, then our evolution has reached a dead end since there is no more room for improvement.


Which is what the Theonormals -- those who live on the surface world -- largely represent. They had "evolved" to the point where they no longer could, and rejected the texhnolyzed limbs, along with Kano who had embraced said limbs over keeping Onishi's legs.

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Ran did not want humanity to die out? What part of her actions support that? She saw the future, then gave out just the right amount of information so that Ichise etc. fulfilled their part in the destruction that she forsaw.


Addressed below:

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What about rescuing Ichise from the sewer, knowing his role in fracturing the Organo. Or having that Organo guy betray and try to assasinate Onishi, crippling the Organo at a critical junction? It seems more like she was manipulating things behind the scenes the ending she forsaw did come to pass.


Ran did not receive the vision of Ichise being the crux of the fall of Lukuss until after Yoshii, at the very least. Her own attempts to keep what she sees from happening merely opens up more possibilities in the future of more destruction. Her character is an ambiguous one, certainly. She won't accept the role of being the Seer of Gabe because that is far, far too much of a burden to carry. She doesn't want to resign herself to the fatalistic attitude that the rest of Gabe has adapted, and doesn't want to only see her dark and ominous visions. She repeatedly tries to prevent her visions from coming to pass but in the end the results are harmful, as is the case with the actions of every other single character in the series, which is one of the main points that I quoted earlier:

Philip R. Banks wrote:
This I think is one of the big things that I have been half right about. Texhnolyze has indeed been about how to live, but not so much in trying to show us the right way to live but to show us that every approach is flawed and ultimately doomed to fail. Perversely the very destruction wrought by all these competing ways of life brings with it the seeds of renewal and in classic Buddhist form is neither a bad or good thing. Merely an expression of change which is the cornerstone of Samsara.
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Nenad



Joined: 09 Sep 2013
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:37 am Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
Texhnolyze is as much as an emotional drama about humans as it is an introspection about humanity itself. If you couldn't get into the characters, then it wouldn't leave that much of an impact on you. There was never really a problem about it "trying" to be unconventional and deep, simply because it was like that from the start and never had any concept blatantly thrown at you.


It's interesting, I didn't feel emotionally invested in anything about Texhnolyze, nor its characters. It's not that I hated them, or loved them. I didn't have any strong feeling about any of it. Not even the fatalism. I usually don't get emotionally involved with fiction or fictional characters, but it can happen. For example with Welcome to the N.H.K. Maybe Haibane Renmei, but I haven't watched it yet, I got into anime just a couple of months ago, but it's determined I'll watch it just as spoiler[Ichise is fated to die alone]. I'm having a hard time figuring out what Texhnolyze means to me, myself... that why I'm here, reading this entire thread after all. I didn't feel strong about anything series-wise, except that I had a light, but very determined will to watch it all and a strong intellectual need to analyze the shit out of it.

Anyway, I'm still reading about Texhnolyze, I'll post more when I finish... if I'm not too lazy... I just wanted to start with this little talk.
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