×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
NEWS: Anime Production Companies, Manga Publishers Crack Down on Piracy


Goto page Previous    Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 3447
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:04 pm Reply with quote
@Touma
But the point still stands, those people listed would likely not have been potential customers even if that copy hadn't been uploaded.
Quote:
...
The possible future consequences can be debated because nobody knows, for sure, what they will be.
But in the given scenario it is a fact that the publisher lost the profit on 999 sales.

You're right that how it affects the future sales can be discussed, however as far as present and past goes, you can't claim an imaginary 999 sales translates to real 999 sales profit. A fraction might, and even that can be debated...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 6253
Location: Katy, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:18 pm Reply with quote
After doing some more investigation, it turns out "reverse importing" does have another name (and I didn't know about it and didn't learn this in school), parallel import. After reading this, maybe those anime companies do have a case. But this got my attention when I was reading this:

Wikipedia wrote:
Parallel importing is regulated differently in different jurisdictions; there is no consistency in laws dealing with parallel imports between countries. Neither the Berne Convention nor the Paris Convention explicitly prohibit parallel importation.


So it's debatable if reverse import/parallel import hurt the market or not. That's why I couldn't find any article or data on Reverse importing, it goes under the name parallel import. I've been reading couple of articles:

more bad news for Australia: parallel imports

ASGA highlights dangers of parallel importing

Mexico battle waves of parallel imports

OK, I'll admit anime companies may have a case, but there still debate if parallel import really hurt the market or not, I'll quote Wikipedia again:

Wikipedia wrote:
This tension essentially concerns the rights and duties of a protected monopoly. Intellectual property rights allow the holder to sell at a price that is higher than the price one would pay in a competitive market, but by doing so the holder relinquishes sales to those who would be prepared to buy at a price between the monopoly price and the competitive price. The presence of parallel imports in the marketplace prevents the holder from exploiting the monopoly further by market segmentation, i.e. by applying different prices to different consumers.

Consumer organisations tend to support parallel importation as it offers consumers more choice and lower prices, provided that consumers retain equivalent legal protection to locally sourced products (e.g. in the form of warranties with international effect), and competition is not diminished.


I've read article about price discrimination and monopoly (which I know is against the law, particularly, competition law and unfair practice, and there is no check & balances to make sure companies don't go out of control) as a result of cracking down on parallel import. So yeah couple of article provide good evidence on the negative effect of parallel importing, but the problem is for anti- parallel import practice, it's basically price discrimination and making "bad" monopoly look legal (or should I say decriminalize "bad" monopoly).

I won't complain anymore, but reading more into parallel import, I'm on "the middle of the see-saw".

But Japan's piracy, I still have doubt. But I won't bring up reverse importing/parallel importing anymore on this thread or in the future. So that's that.


Last edited by mdo7 on Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
omiya



Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 1826
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:25 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:

Indeed, that is part of the growing importance of OP/ED music by idols ~ or voice actresses turned idols ~ since that is one area where "popularity" can be directly monetized independent of pirating of the media.


Don't forget there are several voice actors whose musical capabilities and artistic control put themselves outside of a category of "idol", with Nana Mizuki being the prime example.

Artists such as these or dedicated music of anime composers/performers and their songwriters (e.g. Elements Garden) have an interest in delivering good songs for anime - it benefits the anime and themselves as writers/performers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:41 pm Reply with quote
omiya wrote:
agila61 wrote:
Indeed, that is part of the growing importance of OP/ED music by idols ~ or voice actresses turned idols ~ since that is one area where "popularity" can be directly monetized independent of pirating of the media.


Don't forget there are several voice actors whose musical capabilities and artistic control put themselves outside of a category of "idol", with Nana Mizuki being the prime example.

Artists such as these or dedicated music of anime composers/performers and their songwriters (e.g. Elements Garden) have an interest in delivering good songs for anime - it benefits the anime and themselves as writers/performers.

OK ... it doesn't seem to modify the point. I certainly wasn't making any claims that the singers on anime are exclusively idols, I was pointing to the different income generating opportunities for performance artists versus other who collaborate in the production of the finished media who do not have performance income opportunities.

Blanchimont wrote:
@Touma But the point still stands, those people listed would likely not have been potential customers even if that copy hadn't been uploaded.


Take the 999 and assume that 949 are in that camp.

You are still talking about a 50:1 ratio, which is a 98% loss of revenue from "those who buy to lend to others".

The fact that a majority of the unpaid bootleg views are people who are outside of any paid market never leads to a conclusion that there is no difference between buying a copy that is shared on a single use basis among a group and buying a copy in order to create millions of fresh copies. Indeed, the large numbers of freeloaders implies that it is easy for the actual market destruction to take place under the radar, among the minority that actually would have been willing to pay for something.

And some of the market destruction is done by bootleg sites masquerading as legit sites and fooling some younger, naive users into thinking that they are legitimate sites.

mdo7 wrote:
So it's debatable if reverse import/parallel import hurt the market or not.

The fundamental point remains that demanding companies to risk bankruptcy because they possibly might not go bankrupt is not a fair or reasonable demand. It needs to be demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that the demanded change will not drive them into bankruptcy.

It is likely that there are some changes where that case can, in fact, be made ... but no serious case can be made if the assumption is that the burden of proof lies on the existing business practices. The burden of proof has to lay with those pushing for reform.

Otherwise the demand being made of the production committees is: "you should experiment and find out whether or not this action that I want will destroy your company. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, I don't know for sure either way, but unless you can prove that it will destroy your company, I am going to continue to demand it."


Last edited by agila61 on Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Touma



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2651
Location: Colorado, USA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:43 pm Reply with quote
Blanchimont wrote:
@Touma
But the point still stands, those people listed would likely not have been potential customers even if that copy hadn't been uploaded.
Quote:
...
The possible future consequences can be debated because nobody knows, for sure, what they will be.
But in the given scenario it is a fact that the publisher lost the profit on 999 sales.

You're right that how it affects the future sales can be discussed, however as far as present and past goes, you can't claim an imaginary 999 sales translates to real 999 sales profit. A fraction might, and even that can be debated...

I am not talking about imaginary sales. I am talking about real sales that would have to be made so that our 100,000 hypothetical people can view the content of the disc without buying it.
Person A cannot borrow the disc from Person B unless Person B has bought the disc.

I assumed that 1,000 people bought the disc just as an example. The actual number would almost certainly be different.
But it would have to be more than one. If one person loaned it to 100,000 people and each of them kept it for one day it would take over 273 years for the last person to receive it.
I used 1,000 people buying the disc in the example because having each person lend it to 100 people is not impossible. But I really think that if 100,000 were going to borrow it at least 10,000 would have bought it.
But this is just to illustrate a point so you can use whatever number seems reasonable to you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 3804
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:26 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
So even though there is no rival bidder likely to show up for those rights, the country's rights fall into a licensing black hole.

But at the same time, anime internationally is a niche market, and the available revenues from a large number of countries are much too low to pay for a lawyer to look over the license for each individual country. So there is a strong benefit in anime to group countries together into licensing regions.

Ultimately this logic leads to centralized streaming services located in Japan serving a global market, which is my vision for the future of the industry. Daisuki will survive, but Crunchyroll may not. Regional licensing may make sense for Hollywood; it doesn't make sense for anime productions. The market is spread so thinly across the world that the Internet provides the only effective means of aggregation in the long run.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 2658
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:28 pm Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
mdo7 wrote:
So it's debatable if reverse import/parallel import hurt the market or not.

The fundamental point remains that demanding companies to risk bankruptcy because they possibly might not go bankrupt is not a fair or reasonable demand. It needs to be demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that the demanded change will not drive them into bankruptcy.

It is likely that there are some changes where that case can, in fact, be made ... but no serious case can be made if the assumption is that the burden of proof lies on the existing business practices. The burden of proof has to lay with those pushing for reform.

Otherwise the demand being made of the production committees is: "you should experiment and find out whether or not this action that I want will destroy your company. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, I don't know for sure either way, but unless you can prove that it will destroy your company, I am going to continue to demand it."


You do realize that most companies (not only japanese) oppose change, so even if someone came with some proof, their mentality is set in doing business as if the world around them was not changing at an accelerated pace. Look at Kodak, they were going head on into a cliff and if anything they accelerated instead of changing course. Japanese anime/manga companies have their sights in the local market when they should have set their sights into worldwide distribution at least twenty years ago (about the same time china opened their economy to the world).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 6253
Location: Katy, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:50 pm Reply with quote
mangamuscle wrote:

Japanese anime/manga companies have their sights in the local market when they should have set their sights into worldwide distribution at least twenty years ago (about the same time china opened their economy to the world).


Japan was more active in the global market in the 70's and 80's (you remember Japanese companies used to had a lot foreign investment in the US), but I noticed after that big asset price bubble that Japan faced (which lead to the lost decade), Japan sort of lost it's "global" knowledge. It doesn't help that Japanese workers and students are not studying abroad like they used to, I think I mentioned it in one of my post somewhere.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:30 pm Reply with quote
yuna49 wrote:
agila61 wrote:
So even though there is no rival bidder likely to show up for those rights, the country's rights fall into a licensing black hole.

But at the same time, anime internationally is a niche market, and the available revenues from a large number of countries are much too low to pay for a lawyer to look over the license for each individual country. So there is a strong benefit in anime to group countries together into licensing regions.

Ultimately this logic leads to centralized streaming services located in Japan serving a global market, ...

Not necessarily ~ if someone else can run it more effectively than the Japanese can, it may be more effective to outsource the international streaming to someone else.

Quote:
which is my vision for the future of the industry.

Which explains why you projected that as an implication even though its only one of several possible outcomes.

Quote:
Daisuki will survive, but Crunchyroll may not.

The generic issue with Daisuki is that as a joint venture, there may be a reluctance on the part of the majority of licensors outside of the club to concede the insiders the benefit if Daisuki were to become the primary mean of monetising international streaming. Crunchyroll as a going concern outside of Japan that makes an offer for everything does not threaten any licensors position. So long as licensors that are not venture partners do not license to Daisuki, it cannot become the common aggregator.

The specific issue with Daisuki is that its not clear whether it make any money for its partners ... and if it does, how it does. Crunchyroll, by contrast, is a proven source of a small but net positive revenue flow.

Quote:
Regional licensing may make sense for Hollywood; it doesn't make sense for anime productions. The market is spread so thinly across the world that the Internet provides the only effective means of aggregation in the long run.

You are free to assume that, if you wish, but there's insufficient evidence to conclude it.

mangamuscle wrote:
You do realize that most companies (not only japanese) oppose change, so even if someone came with some proof, their mentality is set in doing business as if the world around them was not changing at an accelerated pace.

That only argues that there might exist some changes which wouldn't have the feared effect: that does not prove that any particular change wouldn't. The case still needs to be argued on its merits, not with sweeping hand-waves.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
sol20



Joined: 01 Aug 2014
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:42 pm Reply with quote
This might be a repeat question.

If you have a account through crunchyrol, but at the same time download torrents through fansub groups of the same shows, does that count as piracy if your not keeping the shows.

its the same thing when VHS recording was done or cassette tapes through radio.

if so, why wasn't there a problem during that time period or was there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:08 pm Reply with quote
sol20 wrote:
This might be a repeat question.

If you have a account through crunchyrol, but at the same time download torrents through fansub groups of the same shows, does that count as piracy if your not keeping the shows.

its the same thing when VHS recording was done or cassette tapes through radio.


While for all I know this may depend on the country, in the US, at least, the piracy is the copying and distribution without permission. So if you download a torrent and you reseed the torrent, that is copying and distributing the show without permission. By contrast (ironically), if you leech off the torrent download, and do not reseed the torrent, then the legal jeopardy lies with whomever was seeding or reseeding the torrent you were downloading.

Similarly, the pirate for a bootleg stream is the person who uploads the stream, not the person who views the stream.

In the old days, if you videotaped a show (or cassette taped an "all night album replay") off the air, and retained the tape only for your one personal use, that was legal, since it was not considered copying and distributing without permission.

Note that since Crunchyroll accounts for royalties based on your views, its the material that you actually watch on Crunchyroll that will be credited with a share of your crunchyroll subscription payment.

Quote:
if so, why wasn't there a problem during that time period or was there.

This was an issue ~ movie studios brought the case to court, and lost. It was when they lost that it was clarified that copying of something you obtained legally, for your own personal use, without redistribution, is OK. That's why the US "Digital Millenium Copyright Act" outlawed most efforts to break DRM ... because they could not get the making of the copy for personal use outlawed, they tired to get Congress to make it illegal to make those copies usable.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kikaioh



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 1205
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:25 pm Reply with quote
sol20 wrote:
This might be a repeat question.

If you have a account through crunchyrol, but at the same time download torrents through fansub groups of the same shows, does that count as piracy if your not keeping the shows.

its the same thing when VHS recording was done or cassette tapes through radio.

if so, why wasn't there a problem during that time period or was there.


To add to agila's post, I think what you might be referring to is called 'space-shifting', which I think is the file-centric equivalent of what time-shifting on VHS was back in the 80's and 90's. There was a landmark copyright ruling in the 80's for the Sony vs. Universal case, which did in fact find that personal recordings of broadcast television shows for non-commercial timeshifting purposes constituted fair use.

There was, however, another landmark copyright ruling in the early 2000's, A&M vs. Napster, which I think covers space-shifting. Torrents largely work by users downloading the file while concurrently uploading the file to other users, which subsequently speeds up and spreads the geographic area of the seeding. It's the "sharing" aspect found in the Napster ruling that renders the sort of space-shifting found in torrenting incompatible with fair-use --- the court reasoned that space-shifting innately carried a structural means for enabling large-scale replication and distribution of content to other users that wasn't present in conventional VHS time-shifting.

So if you're reseeding torrents, you would be engaging in piracy mainly by the fact that you're not just making a personal copy for yourself, but for other people as well. If you're just leeching though, you may be entering a legal grey area (downloading from a legal stream you've paid for is one thing, torrenting from illegally generated copies sounds like it would be something completely else, though I'm not sure if there's court precedence for this sort of issue).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:52 pm Reply with quote
Kikaioh wrote:
If you're just leeching though, you may be entering a legal grey area.

The legal claim would likely that you are an accomplice, but even then proving damages for those who did not reseed would be tricky.

However, one thing to be wary of is that the business model for torrent lawsuits ~ again, in the US ~ is to charge a large number and then try to get people to settle out of court, and in the process the plaintiffs are not likely to be too scrupulous in terms of whether each and every person that has a complaint filed against them actually engaged in file sharing.

And in the US, the cost of defending yourself against a claim can be high, even if you are successful, so whether an action is strictly legal and whether its entirely "safe" from those who abuse the system are two different issues.

The risk of being caught in a sweep seems to be very low, but the risk if zero if you refrain from engaging in torrent downloads unless they are expressly allowed by the license for a file.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 2658
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:43 am Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
mangamuscle wrote:
You do realize that most companies (not only japanese) oppose change, so even if someone came with some proof, their mentality is set in doing business as if the world around them was not changing at an accelerated pace.

That only argues that there might exist some changes which wouldn't have the feared effect: that does not prove that any particular change wouldn't. The case still needs to be argued on its merits, not with sweeping hand-waves.


With that line of thought entrepreneurship would be dead and buried long ago, there would be no innovation, only endless arguments of why it can't be done. Reading your later comments, it is quite evident it is quite more comfortable for said companies to sue their customers, no doubt "Greed works 24x7, and it is legal".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sol20



Joined: 01 Aug 2014
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:41 am Reply with quote
Ok, so the sharing illegality makes since, the downloading seems weird and at the same time I just can't see how anyone could even attempt to stop sharing content for the reason as how old and natural it seems to be.
(ex. printing press , vinyl records, cassettes, vhs etc.)

I did some research and found even the rants about how bad it is are just as old and natural.


Jack Valenti:

This is more than a tidal wave. It is more than an avalanche. It is here. Now, that is where the problem is...We are going to bleed and bleed and hemorrhage, unless this Congress at least protects one industry that is able to retrieve a surplus balance of trade and whose total future depends on its protection from the savagery and the ravages of this machine." (VCR)
Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous    Next
Page 13 of 14

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group