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Hello one, hello all and welcome to my personal resurrection of a -remarkably- old little gem of these forums that I just didn't wanna see kept buried.

To kick things off, we'll be gathering round' to discuss Madoka Magica over the next month. This show is a lovely cerebral and subversive Faustian tragedy about the hopes and disparity that surrounds five magical girls, rare super humans that create a contract with a mysterious and advanced critter known as Kyubey. In this contract, our girls exchange their humanity for the life of a magical girl, which means a brutal and short existence tracking and dispatching their ultimate antithesis: witches. Just what these things are and what their thematic significance is will be revealed as we watch along. As these girls slowly peel back the labyrinth of truth that surrounds their kind and destinies; wishes are horrifically betrayed, hope is lost, and characters get a karmic kick to the gut at every corner. Buuuuttt maybe I should dial it back a bit here and let the show do the talking. Don't wanna give to much away Wink

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Just a couple of rules for the groundwork (copy pasted from the threads of yore)
1) Should you feel so compelled, you can skip ahead of schedule, but please don’t discuss episodes ahead of time in this thread. If the week’s schedule says we’ll be talking about episodes 1-4, don’t talk about what happens in episode 5. Don’t even use spoiler tags as an excuse. You can slightly foreshadow if you like, saying, “Remember what happens in that scene, it will be important in episode 5,” but no spoilage. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
2) Don’t be afraid to speak up about anything and everything you notice in the show, so long as you find it interesting or meaningful. I don’t have to worry about people being noobish much on ANN, so I want to address the opposite problem. Your opinion and participation are what will make this thread memorable and hopefully spark new life for certain series on this site.

A few things to keep in the back of your head during the series:

1) We sure do have a colorful palate when it comes to our girls here. Any thoughts on the significance of the color/ weapon scheme?

2) A LOT of these characters seem to represent certain ideas and Gen's thoughts on them (don't worry. We'll talk more about that later on). To fully understand the karmic dealings and the significance of some of the more emotional events of the series, you're gonna have to scratch your head a bit and get to the nitty gritty subtext that Gen seems to love all so much.

Any insight on characters/ events is more then welcome, whether relevant to the discussion questions or not!

Here's the unofficial schedule that I'll *try* to keep to over the next month or so.

Aug 15- Aug 22- Week one, first three episodes
Aug 23- Aug 29- Episodes 4-7
Aug 30- Sept 5- Episodes 8-11
Spet 5- Sept 11- Episodes 12/ Final thoughts
Sept 11- Sept 14- Bonus! Thoughts on Rebellion.

Oh yeah, before I forget, here's a couple of older discussions, just so you guys can get a handle on the format: animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=62138 animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=62170

Ep 1: I First Met Her in a Dream, or Something...

Ep 2: That Would Be Truly Wonderful

Ep 3: I'm Not Afraid of Anything Anymore

Let's dive right in with the first three episodes, which is an arc of fast paced introductions and sudden thematic reveals (hey, it's a 12 episode show). Lot's of important things and big, dramatic reveals, and thematic introductions are the flavor of the day, especially for episode 3.
Here are some questions to get the gears going. I'll give you my own thoughts on everything in a day or so:

* Mami, during these episodes seems to hold a lot of general significance thematically. As of episode 3, what can you assess of just what her significance to Madoka and Sayaka, and what she represents in the larger scheme of things? What do you think of her general perspective on things?

* What do you make of Madoka's general character during this point in time? If you can, take some notes and tell me what you think of how she develops throughout the series.

* Mami and Homura sure don't seem to get along very well, do they? What do you think is the significance of this, and what about their personalities and perspectives (at least, the little that you know about now) do you think causes this?

Well, having seen Madoka twice before and buying it for my IPad strictly for the book club (and because it's one of my favorite anime of all time), I decided to give this a shot. I'm going to start by doing a character outline of all five main leads and answering the initial questions rather than for the first three episodes.

Madoka Kaname

Meet our average every-girl heroine! Madoka dresses in primarily pink- a common choice for your stereotypical magical girl. Oddly enough, Madoka's magical girl design recalls princesses and fairy godmothers. The former could reflect how Homura views her in her twisted and broken mind. The latter...well, it has a lot to do with the general theme of "be careful what you wish for because you might not actually want it". Her use of arrows perhaps reflects on her desire to be a supporting character who stays on the sidelines and doesn't really want attention?

Madoka reminds me a lot of Duck from the fantastic Princess Tutu. Both characters are seemingly ordinary, yet are key to how events in their respective story-lines end up. While Duck's personality is more in line with the energetic screw-up whose magical girl form reflects her ideal self- which in Duck's case, is not necessarily the form that is right for her, Madoka is a happy girl whose life is average but perfectly fine. When she witnesses the tragedies of her friends, she herself is horribly broken and ends up accidentally making things worse for her friends. Still, both Duck and Madoka have their hearts in the right place, and ultimately, their selflessness leads to them changing their worlds for the better.

Homura Akemi

Homura is our mysterious transfer student, dressed in black and with a seemingly stoic face. Her magical girl uniform looks suspiciously like her school uniform, maybe representing her desire to be close to Madoka. The shield she uses ties in with her private and stoic outer self, while her use of guns and bombs shows her practical, no-nonsense, get-the-job-done attitude towards Witch hunting.

Homura embodies the tragic hero archetype perfectly. Her fatal flaw is her love for Madoka, which is unusual in a genre where the power of love saves the day. Homura's love- while genuine- is also selfish. Madoka is her number one priority and emotional crutch. While her backstory is sympathetic enough, it's made clear that Homura's near-obsession with her princess is tragic and not okay at all. Thus, she deserves exactly what she got in the end.

Sayaka Miki

Sayaka is our loud, out-spoken, tomboyish magical girl in blue, a color associated with boys in our modern culture. Her magical girl outfit calls to mind traditional superheroes, representing her own need to serve justice and be praised. Sayaka's use of cutlasses reflects her own bold and confrontational personality, alongside her impulse to be in the limelight and be the initiator.

Sayaka's case is interesting in that she wants to be a hero for all the wrong reasons. The main reason she contracts even after seeing the glamour of the magical girl system get wiped way amounts to "someone has to do it". She wants to uphold her mentor's ideals at first. Unfortunately, we see that what Sayaka really wants out of her hero job is not the satisfaction of saving the day, but the perks of having superpowers. She wants praise and adulation, she wants the boy, and she wants attention. In fact, Sayaka reminds me too much of Asuka from Evangelion in terms of the desire to be rewarded for heroism and attitudes towards warfare and fighting. Ultimately, both girls end up getting their asses handed to them when they stop getting what they want.

Mami Tomoe

Mami is our ojou and team mom, with yellow curls and golden eyes revealing a soft and gentle demeanor. Her magical girl outfit reminds one of a western sniper, practical but also cool. Her use of rifles shows off her analytical side, as she prefers thinking her way through Witch fights and looking good while at it. I should mention that guns in Japan are either straight-out banned or in the case of Mami's muskets, difficult to get. Perhaps this shows a dangerous and exotic side that showcases the life of magical girls?

Mami is a product of the system. She's the type who never questions orders and always follows the rules. Sadly, her attitude of keeping up the traditional hero role leaves her alienated and alone. When we are later presented with a scenario where Mami discovers the end result of the magical girl system, she goes mad from the revelation and has to be killed in mercy because she simply couldn't handle the truth. Ignorance certainly isn't bliss this time.

Kyoko Sakura

Kyoko is our redhead anti-hero, who wears a conservative robe reflecting her Christian heritage. She's fiery and angry, and often times outspoken and crass. She uses a lance, which is similar to Sayaka's choice of a cutlass. What differs is that Kyoko is less confrontational in the battle field than Sayaka, while also more of a, ahem, lancer who opposes Sayaka's naive opinions. You could say she's her antithesis.

Kyoko is a social Darwinist. She believes in letting weaker humans get killed by Familiars so that they can become Witches, and therefore benefitting herself. This is not without reason, however; in her past, Kyoko learned the hard way that a selfless wish is not the best idea when her good intentions pave the road to hell. As the horrible truth about what she has become unravels, Kyoko opens up to Sayaka and is willing to sacrifice everything to atone for her past mistakes.

Whew! That was a lot of talking! I'll post my thoughts on the first three episodes next time.[/i]

Oh, f**k it. I'm going to answer the questions for the first three episodes, anyway.

1) Mami is a perfect paragon in her juniors' minds. She's cool and confident, a skilled fighter, a graceful lady, and everything that is good and right with the world. Beneath that facade, however, lies an emotionally fragile and lonely girl who is forced to fight an endless war alone. With her death, Mami serves as an example of one of two fates of those who are conscripted into the magical girl system. (Sayaka is an example of the other fate, but we'll get to her.) Mami herself prefers to live a life not knowing about the nastier consequences of being a magical girl. To me, she strikes me as the type who follows orders without question and would willingly live in her little happy bubble for the rest of her short life. We're later shown a scenario about what happens when that happy bubble is burst and...well, she goes cuckoo for cocoa puffs shortly afterward. Once again, ignorance is not bliss.

2) At the beginning of this series, Madoka is shown to be living a happy life. She has two loving parents, (with gender-roles subverted and treated like a normal thing) a cute little baby brother, and two best friends by her side. Madoka herself seems to resent being ordinary, as she is a little self-deprecating when talking about her average grades, looks, and talents with Mami while in Charlotte's Labyrinth. She also seems like the type who's a bit impulsive and would happily throw her life away if it would make someone else's life better.

3) From what we've seen so far (especially with Episode One: ALL THE FORESHADOWING), Homura knows a lot more about the magical girl system than Mami does. Mami, not knowing as much as Homura, wants Madoka to join her so she won't be alone. Homura doesn't want her to, but can't tell Mami why for risk of bursting the happy bubble for spoiler-y reasons.

Ahah ^^; sorry for throwing you to the wolves and wind like that for a few days when I promised that I would answer sooner. Truth be told, I just really wanted to give some wiggle room for others to respond (I *hope* there's gonna be an increased interest in this thing...)
And good character synopsis! Even though I wouldn't QUITE call Kyoko a social Darwinist... but I'll give more of my thoughts on her later.

*Yes, Mami is a hero and gem for Sayaka and Madoka to fawn over, but underneath that lies something very insidious. She supports and represents a horrible, oppressive establishment, all while giving it a friendly face. It's easy enough to hate Kyube as the direct antagonist, but did Mami not do her own part in supporting the establishment by giving it a sweet, heroic, rational face? Even giving the to-be magical girls thoughtful advice and friendship. She lives by the system and dies by the system. If you wanna see another example of this kinda character, think Ms. Temple from Jane Eyre, who supported a school system that oppressed women all while giving some students incentive to be comfortable by giving them favors and being genuinely kind hearted, while doing nothing to get these girls out of their hellhole.

*In these first episodes, you see Madoka in a pinnacle age in her life where she's forming an identity and just trying to find out what to do with it. She's comfortable in her family life, but unsatisfied, and even a bit self loathing, so of course the fantasy of being something greater appeals to her. She has a wonderful and strong mother as a good role model, and she highly respects her for her passion and success in the workplace, in addition to seeing her as a life guide

*Maimi and Homora are instantly at each others throats for their immediately opposing viewpoints. Homura is looking to take away Mami's entire livelyhood, and most importantly, her potential friends, and just can't let that happen. She tries to figure Homura out, and simply paints this picture of her as an odd, stoic survivalist who just doesn't wanna share her territory. I find it interesting that all three girls, at this point, paint her out to be totally against their own values, and even start to show a bit of an us/ them mentality.

Anywho, that's it for now ^^; I wanna try to expand on my ideas later on, and maybe even get a bit of a discoures going with some other peeps of the forums. That is, ya know, if there's a general interest in it.

Oh, and a quick shameless plug, I kinda wrote a blog post with some of my ideas on Sayaka, and even a bit on Kyoko and their relationship as foils a while back, just in case you wanted to get the gears going for future conversation :3 http://radarjay.tumblr.com/post/91027818365/sayaka-miki-the-blue-gem

So...um...have you considered inviting members to the book club? I really don't want this to get canceled. I worked so hard on my answers! I just hope we're not the only two people...

I'll post some thoughts tomorrow since I'm fairly busy during the week. I'll help spread the word about the book club.

Thank you and welcome to the forums! Be sure to invite all your friends to a discussion of a modern classic anime! We also have digital cookies and cake, so there's that. Wink

Inviting members O_o?? Do you guys have anyone in mind (remember, I'm still kinda a newb around these parts). And I hope it garners more attention too D: these kind of things are cool. And thanks a TON to you two for the initiative you're trying to take. I'll post a new set of questions tomorrow as promised. And yess D: spread the news about this thing!

Last edited by RadarJay on Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total

Alright alright y'all. Time to kick some life into this thing with the second week of discussion, which brings us a series of episodes chock full of some more subtle character insight and revelations, crescendoing into a huge cliffhanger by episode 6, all while exploring Sayaka in her first complete arc.

Imma also start including more questions to help get the ball rolling with discussions over here.
(By the way, I'll totally move ahead of schedule if something like last week happens, where the discussion just runs dry and the only real thing to do is move on.)

Ep. 4: Miracles and Magic Are Real

Ep. 5: There's No Way I'll Ever Regret It

Ep. 6: This Just Can't Be Right

*Do you think that the fact that Madoka falls into the witches labyrinth is... telling, or significant to what she's feeling right now? Why or why not?

*Why do you think Sayaka is *really* scared at this point, and what drives her to accept Madoka's help when she was about to go hunting? I personally think that it's just a wee bit more complex then a simple life/ death thing.

*What do you think are some of Sayaka's perspective changes after she meets Kyoko?

*At this point, Kyoko and Sayaka seem just as stubbornly intent about changing each others mind frames. This will be super broad, but give any sort of ideas you guys have on their relationship as foils at this point.

*Hmmm... Madoka's mom said that sometimes the best thing that you can do is make a good mistake. Madoka certainly does this by throwing Sayaka's gem off the bridge. Now, at this moment, why do you think this little event would be so significant to certain girls in particular?

Alright, it's answering time!

1) In the immediate aftermath of Mami's untimely death, Madoka spends most of her screentime in mourning. It's inferred that she blames herself for her mentor's killing, and may be subconsciously wishing death on herself for that. Of course, the Witch (H. N. Elly, according to Word of God) decides to feed on her despair by forcing Madoka to relive the events of Episode 3. Even worse, Madoka doesn't see anything wrong with what's happening to her.

2) It's possible that Sayaka Miki may have some sort of emotional dependency disorder. She's not scared of dying so much as having nobody to hold her hand and tell her everything will be okay. Madoka mainly serves as the heart of the group, so Sayaka brings her friend along to act as cheerleader and support.

3) The only magical girls Sayaka has had any interaction with before Kyoko were Mami and Homura. She wants badly to hold onto the ideals of Mami and every magical girl anime lead out there. With Kyoko's social Darwinist philosophies (see the entire food chain discussion), Sayaka comes to believe that the only magical girls left are just like Homura and Kyoko. She fears being reduced to a predator who lets innocents get eaten for her own good. She's going to be a selfless hero who protects the unprotected, see,? In the universe, however, being selfless is not exactly a good thing. Even then, Sayaka still secretly wants to be coddled and rewarded for heroism. She deserves cookies!

4) As foils, Kyoko and Sayaka sit in the opposite ends of the selfless/selfish scale. We learn in Episode 7 why Kyoko doesn't like the idea of selfless wishes, seeing as it almost destroyed her life. So far, Sayaka hasn't had to deal with her selfish desire to be Kyousuke's girlfriend. Naturally, she naively believes that everything will work out for the best. She's not going to be a cynical jerk like the more battle-weary Kyoko. Or will she...?

5) Also in Episode 7, we get to find out about Kyoko's religious background. Given the ending of Episode Six, she just discovered that she gleefully handed her soul and her humanity over to Kyubey. Sayaka herself is only just realizing that she was turned into something inhuman. They really can't go back to their old lives now. Nothing has turned out like it would have on Sailor Moon or other magical girl shows.

On an aside, we also get to see the fist hints of Kyubey's sociopathy. What creeped me out the most was how logical he was when explaining the nature of Soul Gems. Imagine a teacher coldly lecturing you about how he just basically turned you into an undead lich. Worse, Kyubey sees absolutely no problem with the system. We're going to see even more sociopathic traits in the next three episodes.

Still no other posters, huh? Someone...anyone...we need members to discuss this. We can't let this get canceled guys. Hello...? Is anyone out there...? Please? Somebody? Anybody?

Sigh. This is gonna get canned, isn't it? Sad

Not Yet! I'll be on vacation this weekend so I'll be able to post a response then. I promise this time.

-------------------------
There is one thing I want to touch on, however: Homura, Mami, and the Magical Girl System. What stood out to me about these two characters is how they are both broken by the system, but in opposite and opposing ways. Mami's wish was to live, so she does, despite her solitude. So now, she is dependent on the system that gave her life. Homura, however, has realized the ugly truth of the MGS. So now, she fights against the system that feeds on life and has damaged hers, irreparably. Mami appears before Homura as the strongest shield for the MGS. Therefore, they clash.

A small preface: I'mma start doing things a tad differently around here (well, not THAT different... it's been done in other Book Clubs before) but I want to start talking about episodes as a whole, answering questions while giving other insight and observations on the going-ons. Unforrrtunnnetlllyy I'm a bit tight for time tonight, so I'm afraid I can only stick around to write on episode 4. I'll be back and fresh first thing tomorrow.

Sayaka is going through a turbulent time, to say the least. She’s starting to get a taste of the true injustice of this world due to… well… everything that’s been happening lately in addition to learning about the true nature of magical girls. In response to this, she strengthens a sense of martyrdom that she makes her moral compass, and seeks to be a beacon of hope. And… well… you know the reset with Kyousuke (hey, at least we get a really nice visual of her being literally on top of the world when everything is going peachy.)

In the meantime, Madoka is spiraling down an ugly path of self-loathing, blaming herself for Mami’s death and wallowing all alone in her room. At this point, she’s more keen to Homuora’s warning than ever, but she can’t help but kicking herself for denying an opportunity to do something. Things get worse when she runs across Hitomi and follows her into what turns out to be a witches layer. We also see how witches operate, and it ain’t pretty. Madoka gets to first hand see them mercilessly, without compunction, tear apart the desperate and weak. So, naturally, she falls straight into the witches labyrinth. Once in there, the witch waste no time in wringing out Madoka for that sweet sweet disparity by playing Mami’s death on TVs, pushing her further down a funnel of self-hatred.

And noooo D: you won't waste your money on my watch, Akane! At least, ya know... if people start participating.

Man, I think I'm getting a cold...wait, where am I?

Oh...

So, I was thinking; I've never seen Sailor Moon before in my life. Yeah, I wasn't born around the time they aired the DiC dub, so I never got into it. Of course, I'm going to go watch it when Viz airs the new and unedited dub this winter. Why do I bring this up?

I think I'll compare both Sailor Moon and Madoka when I get around to seeing the former. I'll talk about the themes, the tropes and cliches Mr. Urobutcher tears apart and deconstructs, along with the importance of both anime in the "Magical Girl" genre. So, why don't we do a comparison, huh? From someone who's seen it, I mean. Wink

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ANN Book Club -- Puella Magi Madoka Magica.