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Episode Review: Akame ga KILL!


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Tuor_of_Gondolin



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:50 pm Reply with quote
Since you guys have brought this up: in English we have two words "Just" and "Lawful", which may seem to mean the same thing, but do not. "Justice" is a very tricky word, but "Lawful" is pretty straightforward: It just means someone/thing that obeys whatever laws have been created, *regardless* of how just or good those laws are. (In D&D terms, you have Lawful Neutral and Lawful Good (et al.), for example.)

NR is *not* a lawful group. But that doesn't mean they are necessarily Unjust, let alone actually evil. They carefully select their targets and go to great lengths to avoid killing anyone else. In fact, as Bulat showed on the ship, they protect innocents who might get caught up in their fights.

So, I'd say that Night Raid, while certainly a lawless group from the viewpoint of the Empire, are not evil.
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walw6pK4Alo



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:01 pm Reply with quote
Yttrbio wrote:
I rather like the rushed pacing (largely inherited from its manga source). It's like an efficient version of the typical shonen action formula. It skips over or summarizes some of the worst parts (training sequences, tournament arcs, etc.) and gets to the point. The end result is more fun and watchable, though the dramatic gravitas does come up short at times.


I'm not going to say it's shounen action fighting done right, as there's plenty of decent long and drawn out series, but it's more like a shounen action fighting that's far better suited to someone lacking the time, patience, and commitment to give it 100+ episodes. It also helps that there's a real risk factor for the death amongst the named characters, excluding the plot-armor laden protagonist of course. That's the stuff that always annoyed me in the never-ending series, and if a character did manage to die and stay dead, it was always after some tiring and laborious arc followed by a protracted period of mourning and grief. Like how long would it take for a character to die in One Piece, 10 episodes? Efficient is a good word for it, as is distilled. It's the distilled essence of that genre sprinkled with blood and consequences.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:47 pm Reply with quote
Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:

So, I'd say that Night Raid, while certainly a lawless group from the viewpoint of the Empire, are not evil.


Because they're the group we deserve, but not the one we need right now.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:23 am Reply with quote
Tuor_of_Gondolin wrote:
Since you guys have brought this up: in English we have two words "Just" and "Lawful", which may seem to mean the same thing, but do not. "Justice" is a very tricky word, but "Lawful" is pretty straightforward: It just means someone/thing that obeys whatever laws have been created, *regardless* of how just or good those laws are. (In D&D terms, you have Lawful Neutral and Lawful Good (et al.), for example.)

NR is *not* a lawful group. But that doesn't mean they are necessarily Unjust, let alone actually evil. They carefully select their targets and go to great lengths to avoid killing anyone else. In fact, as Bulat showed on the ship, they protect innocents who might get caught up in their fights.

So, I'd say that Night Raid, while certainly a lawless group from the viewpoint of the Empire, are not evil.


I agree with you that there are some subtle differences between the two words "lawful" and "just," but I think in this context they are fairly similar, maybe because we are talking more about "justice" in the context of the rule of law and not in a more abstract context. For example, if a murderer who raped and killed a father's kids escaped a prison sentence based on some technicality of the courts, and the father then shot him dead in front of the courthouse as he exited, we might feel like the father's actions were just, but do not represent "justice." The father would be arrested on the spot, tried and convicted for murder (though I'd imagine he wouldn't get a life prison sentence due to mitigating circumstances).

But yea, I see your point. It seems we're saying the same thing though. Night Raid is not evil, they just operate outside of any legal authority, which makes them flawed heroes like any other kind of vigilante. They're unaccountable and execute people based on their own judgments, not based on any standard accepted by the citizenry. This is why Seryu a.k.a. Justice Girl has a somewhat legitimate beef with them, even though she's loony and working for the bad guys.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:10 am Reply with quote
Given the way General Esdeath's squad has been sort of fleshed out and given a generally sympathetic treatment, it seems we are headed for an amalgamation of Night Raid and them. I get a strong feeling that some of these so-called "enemies" will be fighting on the same side, at some point.

Either that, are they are going to wipe each other out in a bloody orgy of mutual destruction. The beauty of this show is that either option is equally viable/likely.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:26 am Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
I agree with you that there are some subtle differences between the two words "lawful" and "just," but I think in this context they are fairly similar, maybe because we are talking more about "justice" in the context of the rule of law and not in a more abstract context. For example, if a murderer who raped and killed a father's kids escaped a prison sentence based on some technicality of the courts, and the father then shot him dead in front of the courthouse as he exited, we might feel like the father's actions were just, but do not represent "justice." The father would be arrested on the spot, tried and convicted for murder (though I'd imagine he wouldn't get a life prison sentence due to mitigating circumstances).

From my point of view, the actions of the father would be just(ified), but not lawful. And basically, the idea of allowing the State to enforce punishment for crimes is due to an implied (or explicit) social contract between individuals and the government. There is nothing *inherently* good about letting the government handle such things, but it is generally felt that the government will be more objective than an individual who feels he has been offended in some way. If an individual's trust in the government is eroded too far, then the contract is revoked and the individual takes matters into his or her own hands, which is not *necessarily* a bad thing, but often is.

Quote:
But yea, I see your point. It seems we're saying the same thing though. Night Raid is not evil, they just operate outside of any legal authority, which makes them flawed heroes like any other kind of vigilante. They're unaccountable and execute people based on their own judgments, not based on any standard accepted by the citizenry. This is why Seryu a.k.a. Justice Girl has a somewhat legitimate beef with them, even though she's loony and working for the bad guys.

I know her actual name is Seryu, but I like calling her Justice Girl, because it is so delightfully ironic. But, regarding what you said here, if you were to change "citizenry" to "government", we would be in complete agreement. It's hard to say what the general citizenry think about Night Raid; I don't think much has been shown of their point of view.

Blood- wrote:
Given the way General Esdeath's squad has been sort of fleshed out and given a generally sympathetic treatment, it seems we are headed for an amalgamation of Night Raid and them. I get a strong feeling that some of these so-called "enemies" will be fighting on the same side, at some point.

Either that, are they are going to wipe each other out in a bloody orgy of mutual destruction. The beauty of this show is that either option is equally viable/likely.

I have a feeling that the revolution, when it occurs, will not be what Night Raid thinks it will be. If that turns out to be true (it's pure speculation on my part), then I can see the two coming together, or at least agreeing to a truce of some sort.


Last edited by Tuor_of_Gondolin on Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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leatherhead333



Joined: 15 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:38 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
leatherhead333 wrote:


Do you remember the Tatsumi saying "We are not evil!" not but a few episodes ago? How is that showing that he recognizes what they are doing is wrong? Them killing their opponents without hesitation is what makes them evil. I don't see any real attempt from them to understand their opponents. Justice Girl stated directly to the night raid why she wants to kill them. Yet all they are thinking about when she comes up is REVENGE! That's NOT characters acknowledging what they are doing is wrong. That's just a bunch of killers going around doing whatever they think is right. Tokyo Ghoul had characters who acknowledged what they were doing was wrong but I have yet to see Akame ga Kill do it in a satisfying fashion.


Being evil is different from doing something that is against the law and/or not justice. When Tatsumi first joined them, he tried to say that they were on the side of justice, and they corrected him and told him they were murderers. That has nothing to do with them saying they are evil. They don't believe they are evil, they think they are doing unjust actions in the hope of bringing about a good result. This is mainly because the system of justice in this world is horribly corrupt and controlled by the real evil, but still, Night Raid acknowledged that they are not operating within what we would consider "justice."


You are sort of missing the point there. The characters admit what they are doing is unjust but they don't care WHAT their actions do to effect others. As I already pointed out none of the Night Raid members care about how their actions have effected Justice Girl and instead just wish to claim revenge. They aren't looking at what they are doing in an objective perspective which is why I brought Tokyo Ghoul which does do that. They kill bad people but don't care for the cause and effect of what they have done which could lead to their own downfall. It's why Sheele is dead afterall. It would be easier to root for them if they weren't a group of killers who don't care who they could possibly affect doing this business. There is no attempt at sympathy for their opponents. While surely not many of them have deserved it the fact that some of them did and they respond with "I'M GONNA KILL YOU!" well..............it's just really lame.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:37 pm Reply with quote
leatherhead333 wrote:


You are sort of missing the point there. The characters admit what they are doing is unjust but they don't care WHAT their actions do to effect others. As I already pointed out none of the Night Raid members care about how their actions have effected Justice Girl and instead just wish to claim revenge. They aren't looking at what they are doing in an objective perspective which is why I brought Tokyo Ghoul which does do that. They kill bad people but don't care for the cause and effect of what they have done which could lead to their own downfall. It's why Sheele is dead afterall. It would be easier to root for them if they weren't a group of killers who don't care who they could possibly affect doing this business. There is no attempt at sympathy for their opponents. While surely not many of them have deserved it the fact that some of them did and they respond with "I'M GONNA KILL YOU!" well..............it's just really lame.


Everything you are saying here is just what makes Night Raid both more realistic and more flawed than Kaneki from Tokyo Ghoul. This is a good thing. They are flawed heroes, which makes them relatable.

Kaneki is just not relatable. He is a typical Christ-like character who is always going above and beyond to see things from every possible side and doesn't want to hurt his enemies. That's not how normal, flawed human beings would be operating in situations like those portrayed in these shows. And I'm not necessarily against Christ-like characters in anime, but I think it's not a character type that is usually executed well. Anime directors are far too likely to over-dramatize such characters (as we have seen in both Tokyo Ghoul and in the scenes from aldnoah.zero where Princess Asylum goes into Christ-like mode).
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leatherhead333



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:10 pm Reply with quote
Actually you are wrong about that. Kaneki IS flawed because he doesn't want to hurt anyone. Don't you remember that pretty much being the main message in the finale episode? He wants to see the good in ghouls and humans but is prone to falling for their tricks because of it.

His way of doing things isn't wrong in a moral sense but it's still a flaw in his character because it makes him incapable of taking out people who DO need to die or be taken out. Even if he isn't capable of taking them out though he STILL knows why both sides of the coin are justified in feeling the way they do. If he was an Akame ga Kill character he'd just as soon murder everyone in his way. That wouldn't make him realistic. Even if it did it would merely make him extremely reprehensible.

The Night Raid not caring about the people they could possibly hurt is a flaw but it doesn't make them relatable. It makes them senseless killers who don't give a shit who they could possibly be effecting. I mean think about it. Technically they CREATED Justice Girl. Her entire reason for living is getting revenge on them. But they still don't care? Even though it's actually their own fault Sheele got killed? All they want is revenge? Honestly I'm just not seeing anything relatable about that. Even if they don't say it a DECENT human being would at least think about this kind of stuff. Tatsumi of all people should have been used for the core of this issue since he's still naive and it would fall perfectly into his development as well for growing past thinking about inconvenient things like this in his line of work.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:04 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, you're pretty much totally mischaracterizing the members of Night Raid. Not surprising since your blind hatred of the show doesn't exactly allow you to make rational judgments about it.

Virtually every person we've seen NR kill has been an unambiguously bad person. Why should they care about them? What they are doing is very open to abuse - what happens if they don't cut the right throat? We'll probably find out because this is the kind of show that is willing to go there. Justice Girl got her nose out of joint because NR killed her mentor who was a real evil douche. That doesn't give her any kind of moral authority relative to NR. She is helping to prop up a corrupt, vile regime.

Even so, the members of NR have acknowledged that she was only doing her job when she killed Sheele, but that's not going to stop them from getting revenge on her. She works for the equivalent of the Gestapo - why shouldn't they kill her?
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Tuor_of_Gondolin



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:53 pm Reply with quote
I agree with Blood-, leatherhead333: you seem to be trying to characterize Night Raid to suit your own view of them.

You keep bringing up Justice Girl and say that Night Raid created her. They did not. The Empire created her, and she gave not the slightest resistance to them doing so, but rather the opposite. Justice Girl is *not* a good person. She is a willing member of a very corrupt and debased government and ignores anything that might disrupt her image of the Empire as a glorious (and just) entity. Her powerfully willful blindness at her superiors actions as well as those of the government as a whole are proof enough of that. I suspect this attitude of hers is somehow wrapped up in how she coped with her father's death, but there's not enough information to make any real conclusions regarding that.

At any rate, NR researches their targets before acting against them. They don't just decide to kill people for the heck of it. And on several occasions they've shown that they avoid hurting anyone but their targets, even going so far as to step into harms way when their *targets* try to harm regular people. Bulat flat out said that he is acting as he does because he wants to help the people and believes NR is the best way for him to do so. And, unlike Justice Girl, NR *is* aware that what they're doing is extremely unlawful, even murderous, but I suppose they feel that they're a lesser evil that can destroy a greater evil.
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ChibiKangaroo



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:55 am Reply with quote
leatherhead333 wrote:
Actually you are wrong about that. Kaneki IS flawed because he doesn't want to hurt anyone. Don't you remember that pretty much being the main message in the finale episode? He wants to see the good in ghouls and humans but is prone to falling for their tricks because of it.


Being "too good" is not a flaw. Being "too Christ-like" is not a flaw. Not in the sense of morality. We, the viewer, might see it as a writing flaw because (in most cases) it is so overdone that it seems absolutely absurd, but it is not a character flaw since it is considered a sign of superiority.

Accordingly, Tokyo Ghoul doesn't play Kaneki's "goodness" as a flaw. It plays all of society around Kaneki as being completely insane, and Kaneki is the only "sane" mind in the world. That is exactly how these "Christ-like" figures are usually utilized in anime. They are the ultimate good. Kaneki is the ultimate force, who is a special "chosen one" and will bridge the divide between ghouls and humans. We've had that hammered into our heads countless times now. Notice how the people accusing him of being flawed are all evil or part of the corrupt system?

As for the final episode, you are really misreading that if you think spoiler[the show was trying to tell us that Kaneki is a bad person because he won't hurt people. Undoubtedly, someone was telling him he was weak for not hurting people, but that was Rize (who is probably the most evil person on the planet). And once he accepted her point of view, Kaneki turns into some kind of crazy psycho like Jason. That is not a moment of enlightenment. It's an over-dramatized process of twisting the Christ-like hero until he breaks and turns into a sadistic, ruthless killer. In no way was that supposed to be understood as Kaneki becoming less flawed.]

Quote:
His way of doing things isn't wrong in a moral sense but it's still a flaw in his character because it makes him incapable of taking out people who DO need to die or be taken out. Even if he isn't capable of taking them out though he STILL knows why both sides of the coin are justified in feeling the way they do.


As someone else already said, the Night Raid members have already acknowledged that the people working for Esdeath have valid reasons for doing what they do. Right after spoiler[Justice Girl kills Sheele, Mine acknowledged that without hesitation.] Night Raid members understand the reasons of their enemies, but that doesn't change the fact that they are their enemies and they know that someone is going to die when they come to blows. That's them being realistic.

The overall problem here is that you are using a very poorly executed Christ-like character as your baseline and trying to use that to say AgK isn't doing a good job with representing both sides of a conflict. Kaneki is a horrible example for this, because he is an example of the extreme version of this character type. It is a ridiculously idealized version that a lot of anime directors hold up as a paragon for all of us to live up to, or feel empathy for them because the crapsack world refuses to accept their superior morals. If AgK tried to make Night Raid members act like that, I would probably be dropping this show faster than a hot potato. I was only able to suffer through Kaneki's poor characterization because the rest of the characters I mostly liked.

I think AgK has done just enough to explain the perspective of Justice Girl and others on her side, including Akame's sister. Obviously, Night Raid is shown to have a much more agreeable position, but that's really all we need here. The kind of equivalence you are looking for (where each side is equally right and wrong and the protagonists understand that) is very unrealistic, and most anime that present things like that come off as naive and corny.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:03 am Reply with quote
Yeah, I never bought into Tokyo Ghoul's last episode's theme of "by refusing to hurt others you cause hurt to others" nonsense. I don't think we were meant to take it as a serious moral position. The intent, I believe, was merely to show how Kaneki was literally tortured out of his pacifism/inactivity. I don't think the show intended to communicate that he is now on the "right" path.
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Key
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:52 am Reply with quote
^
Also my impression, but also off-topic.
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Blood-
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:00 am Reply with quote
Untrue! leatherhead333, in the course of a shoddy analysis, made a comparison of AgK! to Tokyo Ghoul that my colleague CK ably shredded. I merely came along to give his head a light kick as he figuratively lay broken and bloody on the pavement. Wink
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