Forum - View topicCross Ange: Rondo of Angels and Dragons (TV).
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leatherhead333
 Posts: 1187 Location: Kansas |
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My god you are so delusional. A great leader doesn't assault one of their OWN comrades and then expect for them to fight along side them as if nothing happened. That's so freaking stupid I have no idea how to comprehend it. We haven't even seen how she became captain or anything telling us why people follow (outside of sexy time i guess). So I'm certainly not seeing this great leadership. We are just lead to believe that she's leader because of experience we don't know about and dominance tactics. Cool. The fact they even let improperly trained pilots out there is dumb enough. A situation like this has probably happened before. Sure whatever "Norma's are trash" but is that expensive equipment trash? Did they just have money to waste on these people who don't matter? It doesn't make any sense. Logic would imply using equipment that could succeed in molding your soldiers as quickly as possible using things such as holographic simulations and other junk BUT you keep that fear their lives are still in your hands if they disobey. Nazi's basically. In short this world is already stupid but trying to making me believe Zola was a good person? Keep dreaming buddy. If I want to know what to do in order to be the "top dog" in prison I suppose her dominance tactics will come in handy 
And yes I don't care if a fictional character that I didn't like spoiler[died.] Doesn't really matter how the other characters reacted since they were just her meat bags anyway. 
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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Before you call other people delusional and too stupid to comprehend why don't you check your own grounding in the real world? What you think is too fantastic for an anime happens for real all the time. It happens so often in the U.S. military they have a special word for it: command rape. Even frickin DOONSBURY has run series or panels on it. |
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leatherhead333
Posts: 1187 Location: Kansas |
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So I'm guessing you ignored the part about her being a "good" person or the part where I was arguing that Zola wasn't caring over her comrades right? Or the fact you can't even seem to understand how different the situations are.
I'm not blind to that shit. I know it happens. But you seem to be pretending like African military tactics hold any precedence in this issue. Since the commander is gone are they just going to change their "rape the new people to make them conform" policy? Did it suddenly disappear? Well I'm pretty damn sure that if a high ranking official dies in an African military unit NONE of their policies are going to suddenly change. So I'm afraid your example is totally off base. The new leader didn't seem to want to enforce Zola's means of leadership so with this society it's pretty much "Whoever has the most experience can lead how they want". So their leader can be kind, brutal or a rapist. The fact that it doesn't matter only further makes your example bogus. I don't see how it made her a good leader at all since Ange for damn sure wasn't feared into following her and died from stupid leadership if she thought it was a good idea to let Ange fight with them especially after what she pulled. |
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HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
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^^ Add me to the rapidly growing list of people who are tired of your inane utlra-defensive blather and so therefore am going to cease responding. Sorry Blood- your PM was spot on and I should have taken better heed.
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Bugnin
Posts: 575 |
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Dude, if it offends you that much perhaps you should stop watching.
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leatherhead333
Posts: 1187 Location: Kansas |
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Perhaps I AM on the pissy side due to being a nerd and no longer having 24/7 access to my computer (first world problems). Still it just gets really annoying arguing the same points over and over again without there ever being some connection in understanding. That's one of the reasons I always liked talking with Blood sometimes since we could actually agree on some things. It one of those "I understand that is not on the up and up but I still like it for etc. reasons". I'm capable of such a thing as well since the majority of the stuff I'd label masterpieces have noticeable issues in them. I think Cross Ange is a decent enough series if it didn't resort to this B movie women's prison stuff. I mean if the commander was just tight fisted...........or "strict" I don't see much of the story changing.
Just using a quote from whiskeyii here. "Everything in a story has a place. If a scene doesn't do anything to further the plot and/or character development, then in my mind, it's just a waste of screen time and should be cut." I mean think about it. What Ange was feeling during that moment her mech mega evolved could EASILY have been explained by adrenaline that the the body would naturally produce during such a situation. The captain could have still taken her in the room but instead of trying to sexually assault Ange talk about her background or how she see's Normas and perhaps slaps Ange around a bit for being rude. I just sort of get frustrated seeing stuff that has potential end up going down the path I don't want it too. We're all selfish like that right?
If it works for other people that's totally fine. Not my place to judge afterall. I'm just very touchy about certain subjects. I doubt this will change anyone's opinion of me but I'm just putting that this out there. I'M NOT PERFECT! But we all have our pet peeves. Blood with fly off the handle sometimes on people but we love him for it. I think your avatar is quite disturbing and should be burned in fire HaruhiToy but I love your witty remarks. Just know that when your tsundere heads decide to finally spin my way........I'll be waiting 
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15457 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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So would it go something like. "My biggest trait so far is that I am sexually frustrated, you have not been listening to what people have told you so this is supposed to be a scene where I try to break you and will be used later to make you question if you like something terrible. So lets talk. Of course I know rape is bad because I am not a product of a life with no future where there is likely a chain where people resist because they don't like it but eventually come around because there is no alternative. That would almost be symbolism for our lives in the first place." I suppose you wanted it all spoon fed everything the captain had to say, and don't look past the idea that this is a prison and that was rape. You have said before that you wanted villains not so one dimensional, yet refuse to accept characters as multifaceted and being anything other than black or white. I too think the ring came out of nowhere, but I still have a feeling it is going to play a big in explain the DRAGONs, and probably the origins of the magic society including the importance of the royal family, and why Norms are sperated in the first place. |
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leatherhead333
Posts: 1187 Location: Kansas |
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Oh Dusky......
The reason Zola is one dimensional is because all we have seen from her is her sexually aggressive side. There is nothing beyond that has come from her character. In fact I'm pretty sure that's the only reason people liked her in the first place. She jokes about her preference with everyone and is clearly not shy about showing it off. We know absolutely nothing about her BEYOND that which is why I don't see what you mean by me refusing to accept that there is more to her. There isn't. Nobody has the right to rape anyone regardless of background or past experiences. Her being a Norma doesn't excuse her being unapologetic about it. Which is why if she was strict, somewhat violent but not rapey with Ange she would at least have some decent appeal. If the goal was to make Zola an incredibly unlikeable character then perhaps they succeeded but I can't see anything beyond her lesbian wolf tactics because..........that's basically all we are shown about her. Which sort of goes back to what I said about Ange's denial being played up for fanservice since it gave them an excuse to get a ZolaxAnge scene. Now it would have helped if Ange had been developing on some level in her understanding of this world but she hasn't. 180 personality changes aren't bad as long the leading up to them isn't forced. But for the past 3 episodes Ange has continued to spew the vile "norma's" aren't humans line even when she is full of a room of people who kind of cared about the person she caused to die (even if she deserved it). If a character is suddenly thrown into a world that they were lead to believe was evil it is very natural to deny such an experience. During that time though multiple points of view from different sociocultural niches is what can make worlds like this engaging. Much like Cross Ange, Tokyo Ghoul forces the main character into a world he hated and had misconceptions about. Even but even if he denied becoming part of that world for a long time he was still able to slowly understand why he was wrong to improperly judge them as well as the people who hate them like he did which makes for good "slow paced character development". Cross Ange kind of takes advantage of it's weird implausible setting to make the worst possible things happen to the main character one after another to make this change in personality happen as quickly as possible. They had to spoil what kind of character she was going to become in order to keep the audience from ragequitting because of Ange. This is why I detest her as a main character as well as the setting she's being put into. It's perfect for the kind of show Cross Ange wants to be which is dark and edgy but it just doesn't work for me personally. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13224 |
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She was also shown as a capable leader who was respected, and in a lot of cases, loved by her subbordinates.
It's not like she suddenly became accepting of Normas or anything. At least, not that we've seen yet. The development she had in episode 3 was realising she still wanted to live even when she thought she didn't want to. She remembered her mother's words and decided to live on no matter what she had to do. She might have found a bit of sympathy for Coco, but that was after she made a connection to her sister. |
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HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
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What I miss about Zola is that was the first and so far the only character that had something to say about the insipidness state of the culture that rejected them. It was while she was in the process of molesting Ange but she put the question "didn't you get tired of the hypocrisy ..". This implied that her backstory was more complex than that of a displaced baby such as Ange. Had she still been with the story she would have had the most interesting things to say. At least so far. Let's hope some other character steps up to that role. |
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getchman
 Space CowboyPosts: 9120 Location: Bedford, NH |
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maybe it will be Hilda. at very least, based on the next ep preview, she takes on the roll as harem master
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15457 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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What is annoying me is that leatherhead is choosing to ignore this because it does not fit with his view of the character. Zola was clearly a multisided character, ultimately killed by someone who could not show restraint when the time called for it. I don't need to be "told rape is bad", we know it is. But still that ignores the life they live in, that clearly there was some enjoyment between two parties earlier, and I find it hard that they are all just lesbians. It is the only intimacy they can have, chances are you probably end up with a line women forcing themselves onto someone who does not enjoy it until they find some solace, and becomes a twisted opinion that they are doing a favour. Don't hate the player, hate the game. |
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leatherhead333
Posts: 1187 Location: Kansas |
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I didn't ignore it DP. I brought up that her teammates cared about her in my last comment. But what does that really mean in the long run? They are simply used to the kind of person she is. Are they comrades now? Sure i guess. Is she a great leader? That's highly debatable in my opinion. I don't know if it was Zola's decision or not but sending in rookies who were obviously not ready to be in a real battle (and one she just tried to rape) was a terrible choice. Even if it wasn't it only goes to show how much this world doesn't make any damn sense since they are in an advanced society and they've never heard of simulations mock battles etc.
Now yeah she's still competent at leading in leading at leading but I was speaking more of her character off the battlefield which is indeed pretty flat. I simply wanted to see where all this respect came from in the first place. We have no idea how this crew came to be and with the deaths rolling in like clockwork I don't know if ever will see them. I think flashbacks of Zola's character would a be a nice direction for the next episode to go because everything about her can only really be speculated since very little aspects about her character are shown (aside from being a lesbian of course). I'd consider her to be much like Coco and was merely intended to be a plot device character who's only purpose was to die and say something somewhat relevant to speed up the MC's development. They were never intended to be a meaningful part of the story. And I can't say I like folks like that. I think any depth you seem to try to be painting her with is superficial at best. If you want to assume all the psychological reasons she decides to feel people up that's your business. But if the anime is never going to take the time to make that aspect of her personality important enough to address I don't think it's worth noting. She obviously wasn't important enough to keep around so it's not something we are meant to really care about. You can call it wanting to be "spoonfed" but I really don't give a shit. From what we are actually shown about Zola I don't find her behavior acceptable or understandable. Your free to be in love with other women if you want but she is not THAT "crazy in the head" to simply think she was doing what she thought was right for Ange and didn't think it was wrong. Those are your own arbitrary assumptions. Nothing more. EDIT: After rewatching a couple things perhaps I have been a bit harsh on Zola. She told the rookies to stay in the back and not too die. Even told the blue haired girl to not shoot Ange which could possibly mean she was showing a bit of pity even though she still said "do it later". It would only take a a second to shoot Ange down so it's not like time would have been a factor. The angle she is shown in when she dies does make it look like she was protecting Ange. Even so they were at that exact same angle when the dragon attacked them so that's not something I can confirm with confidence. How Zola acts on the battlefield greatly favors her character in my opinion. I just wish she wasn't so unlikeable off the battlefield. |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15457 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Episode 4
And Ange is a B. In fact rather than being a princess it was she is now, I guess you could put that with as either a "spoiler[badass]" or "spoiler[bitch]" (can't remember the rules with language here). She has accepted that she has to fight, spoiler[but she is not friendly at all, in fact we saw her push them out of the way so she can kill more, getting her more money]. Unsurprisingly she is spoiler[getting bullied, although how she deals with it is kind of cool but not exactly helpful]. To be honest I kind of like how Ange has moved forward a bit, but is still lacking in some ways. If I had to give a summarisation I would say many of the characters in this show are flawed, and there are not just black and white. Except characters like spoiler[Vivian, who will probably die]. Hilda looks to be trying to spoiler[make herself another Zola, like taking her place]. But with going from spoiler[pranks to sabotage, she will probably get someone killed]. To be honest I was expecting the spoiler[mecha to spiral out of control and kill Vivian who had been very bubbly in the episode and helped] Ange. With the end it looks like we are moving forward again, bit I was expecting the spoiler[guy to come from another dimension like some sort of cliché], but the preview does not quite look like it. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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Yes, Ange still has a long way to go, but I did enjoy how her bullies kept getting hoisted by their own petards.
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