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Cross Ange: Rondo of Angels and Dragons (TV).


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HaruhiToy



Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4118
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:50 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
No evidence points that Zola held people captive, she was pretty much a product of their lives as the other girls were.

Agreed and very much the point. Zola was as much captive as Ange was. And so was Jill, who has a line that she is "living in hell."

Mecha Hunter wrote:
The trio are the very definition of Stockholm syndrome.


Nonsense. They are all co-prisoners and are doing their best to adjust. There will be all kinds of relationships. All-women and all-men prisons generate plenty of homosexual relationships, all the way from platonic to passionate to bdsm. Three will be tops and there will be bottoms. Incidentally, this is where the "saggy pants" style came from in the inner city. Males in prison use it to show their sexual status and it migrated to the streets.

There are plenty of cases of abstaining such as Selia who not only (as far as we know) doesn't have a lover but upbraided Zola for being excessive.

On another topic, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is we got a glimpse of the backstory of the non-Norma officer in charge of the station. She takes a call (in the cafeteria?) from her dad and assures him that as long as she is there the Norma will stay in line. (call cut short lol) She seems to have a decent working relationship with her charges but I still wonder how she ended up with this particular job. And is she the only mana-capable person there?
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15457
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:06 am Reply with quote
Mecha Hunter wrote:
Prime example: They see Ange in the cafeteria, eating alone at a table, take all her food from her tray while pretending to care about her well being, and when she asks (quite innocently) how they can stomach the taste, Hilda nearly blows her lid as if she's insulting them personally. In addition, Ange was shown treating Coco and Miriam kindly because they did not try to antagonize her. (Fat lot of good it did them, considering their Captain Zola thought it more important to both rape Ange and gloryhound than actually look after their well being.)

Innocently asked? She insulted their lives, that the food they always ate was so bellow taste that she could not stomach it, that she was so much better than them.

She was treating the girls nicely because they still acted as if she was a princess, and she needed something from them. She did not even respect the desert that Coco gave up for her, instead putting it in the bin.

And it has already been mentioned that Zola was planning on having the new recruits in the back, likely only to learn from watching since they were not experienced. Zola tried to tell them to keep formation to keep them safe, but instead they spoiler[chased Ange and got killed], that Zola was right.

Ange is getting the job done, but we also saw her shove one of the others out of the way so she could get the final kill, something that would get her more money, which she just deposited anyway. Something the girls might see as acting as if she is better than them in not needing any of it.
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Mecha Hunter



Joined: 26 Oct 2014
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:07 pm Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
Mecha Hunter wrote:
Prime example: They see Ange in the cafeteria, eating alone at a table, take all her food from her tray while pretending to care about her well being, and when she asks (quite innocently) how they can stomach the taste, Hilda nearly blows her lid as if she's insulting them personally. In addition, Ange was shown treating Coco and Miriam kindly because they did not try to antagonize her. (Fat lot of good it did them, considering their Captain Zola thought it more important to both rape Ange and gloryhound than actually look after their well being.)

Innocently asked? She insulted their lives, that the food they always ate was so bellow taste that she could not stomach it, that she was so much better than them.

She was treating the girls nicely because they still acted as if she was a princess, and she needed something from them. She did not even respect the desert that Coco gave up for her, instead putting it in the bin.

And it has already been mentioned that Zola was planning on having the new recruits in the back, likely only to learn from watching since they were not experienced. Zola tried to tell them to keep formation to keep them safe, but instead they spoiler[chased Ange and got killed], that Zola was right.

Ange is getting the job done, but we also saw her shove one of the others out of the way so she could get the final kill, something that would get her more money, which she just deposited anyway. Something the girls might see as acting as if she is better than them in not needing any of it.


She had the decency to wait until she was alone in her room to do so. She did not insult Coco to her face and was visibly shaken when Coco and Miriam died. She also in no way told either of them to follow her.

As for Ange pushing Hilda out of the way and "stealing her kill," did you notice that Hilda did that to her first AND tried to hit her with "friendly fire" in the process?
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Crusher X303



Joined: 09 May 2014
Posts: 122
Location: Glendora, California
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:32 am Reply with quote
Yeah... she didn't insult Coco and Miriam to their face... that's why when she first met them all she referred to them as "these" and called them "Defects". (as a group)

From the start Ange has had no respect for any norma. She used Coco just to get information she needed and that was it. It wasn't until she made the comparison to her own sister that she cared at all in the slightest about her.

Also if you look back, that was not Hilda that shot that bullet, it was the Silver hair chick or the Orange hair chick. They both have giant guns on there back and are highlighted when the "friendly fire" occurs, Hilda has a completely different mech that was not even involved in that scene.
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leatherhead333



Joined: 15 Aug 2013
Posts: 1187
Location: Kansas
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:03 pm Reply with quote
Mecha Hunter wrote:
New sign in, first time poster here.

Got to say, this series is certainly a guilty pleasure for me.

For the record, I do NOT like the way Princess Angelise aka Ange is being treated at all. Considering the fusion of the worst possible military and prison stereotypes, I can't say it's unexpected.

It's like the show is mixing the worst elements of Freezing and Valvrave, yet neglecting their redeeming qualities. At least for now.

A lot of people seem to like calling the princess a "bitch" and "completely unlikeable." I disagree.

Aside from the In Medias Res opening, the first scene she's in, she chooses to lose a game by prioritizing the safety of her classmate who could well have died from her fall if Ange did not neglect the ball to catch her. This shows that she's inherently a good person.

Second, the scene with the woman and her baby... Really, if Ange alone, as princess, held those views, she would be a monster, but the look of horror on those officers as the baby tore through the barrier shows her whole society thinks that way. Imagine this, baby Bengal Tigers are cute, right? Would you want your neighbor keeping one as a pet? OF COURSE NOT! Bengal Tigers are inherently VERY dangerous. One of them could maul you or someone you care about to death easily without intending to do so. No matter how much your neighbor might adore his/her "baby," you'd want the authorities to take that beast away, by any means necessary. She, along with the rest of her society was brought up to believe that Norma are inherently irrational and violent without exception, and it's only a matter of time before they rampage indiscriminately which leads to point three. Further, Angelise never intended to EXTERMINATE the Norma. She wanted to investigate why they had that defect and prevent others from suffering it in the future. That's a very compassionate goal. Too bad she did not get to see that goal accomplished.

Third. The brutal beatdown and technical rape she received form Commander Jill, and rape attempt from Captain Zola only served to REINFORCE her mindset. "Jill and Zola are irrational, violent and rampaging. They admit to being Norma. I, Princess Angelise, of 'M' kingdom don't behave that way, therefore I am not Norma. There must be some other reason why Mana is not working for me." (She comes up with "Mana just can't reach here" when she meets Coco.)

Fourth. Her desertion attempt. No civilized court on Earth would consider fully pressing charges on desertion when facing her extenuating circumstances, ie the constant threat of rape. In fact, a close eye to Jill's reaction at the end of episode three and listening closely to Jill's conversation with the quartermaster leads me to believe that Jill WANTED Ange to attempt desertion and would have let Zola keep raping her until she tried, just so she could place the blame for the death of her squadmates on her head and have her fight the Dragons purely out of survivor's guilt!

Fifth. Why did Jill put the royal ring on Ange's finger and give her the super-mecha? Turns out Ange CAN use Mana after all! The ring burst out mana and pimped out her mecha the moment Ange's blood touched it, which is apparently why no one else could fly it properly.

Sixth. I find it difficult to see Zola as a good leader, and aside from Stockholm syndrome, I fail to understand how any one of her subordinates would love her. Trade sex for certain favors, perhaps, but love? Further marks against her being a good leader is prioritizing raping her new recruit(s) over actually teaching them how to fight the dragons properly. There's also the fact that her final orders were "just try to stay alive." Not "return to base." Or anything tactically sound. As far as I'm concerned, the deaths of those three people, including Zola herself, was entirely her fault and Jill's.

Seventh. Bullies will be bullies. Most of the time, they don't have any logical reason for going after you. Heck, maybe they even know it, they just don't care. Those three girls in Zola's harem twisted logic into a pretzel just so they could interpret anything Ange said or did as a personal insult, and it only got worse after Zola's death. It's typical "blame the victim" stuff. Heck, they even tried to take Ange out with "friendly fire" near the beginning of episode 4, that's the reason Ange pushed the twin-tail aside. Payback for being shot at.

Eighth. Ange's aloof "bitchiness" in episode 4 is what's known as a "Jerkass facade." She doesn't want anyone to get close to her because she doesn't want to lose anyone close to her again. She's ALREADY lost her mother, her father, her younger sister, Coco, and Miriam. Ersha even lampshades it from the kitchen. (In a sympathetic tone) "Ange." Ange's also very wise to deposit the vast majority of her cash, so that the bully trio doesn't go after it.


First of all, welcome to the site. It's nice to see new faces around here.

As for the question of Ange's character I believe you can only blame her society for so much. The baby incident was the first time Ange had encountered a Norma. Yet she did not experience any sort of shock or disbelief that a small innocent child was being taken from a loving mother who at that time respected the princess. I don't think everyone in the crowd approved of it either but it's not like they could do anything about it. She was extremely cold about the situation and didn't really show signs of caring all that much about the mother's situation. It's rather hard to see her as a good person. Or anyone in the high class society for that matter. While you can blame it on being a classic racist world I believe after one becomes a certain age and has experienced things that should at least change their views a bit that they should be held responsible for how they think.

Did EVERYONE believe that the idea of treating African Americans like tools was justified? Of course not. Heck I was raised in a rather sheltered Christian environment and yet I still questioned the existence of God before even getting into high school.

That's basically what makes Ange so unlikeable in my opinion. Even 4 episodes in she has yet to even slightly change her views of Normas. So the only thing we can do is continue to blame everything on her upbringing. Maybe it's just me but isn't a character like that really shallow and uninteresting?

Still I think you are right about the how she's been treated reinforced her opinion of how despicable Norma's are. Even so in episode 3 I suspected that she was at point accepting that she had similar traits to Norma which was SUPPOSED to be a bit of growing of her character. But instead as soon as we get to episode 4 she's suddenly a badass because she had one near death experience and is somehow able to take the enemy without a shred of fear and deal with her prison situation like a seasoned veteran while STILL retaining that "I'm better than you insects" vibe. It's so laughably absurd that I can barely take her seriously anymore yet alone care about what happens to her.

I totally agree with you on Zola. Her harem stooges were purely a case of Stockholm syndrome especially since Zola is regularly groping the red haired chick in front of everyone and after having furious sex with her claiming her to be pathetic. She then makes it clear afterwards that she is on the search of finding new meat.

This makes it pretty questionable to me what was so great about Zola at all. Off the battlefield as I've stated already we see nothing of how she's AT ALL a good person and is really nothing more than a lesbian wolf. We know why the harem stooges like her but what about everyone else? Lollipop girl, Pinky and Captain Blue? They had SOME respect for her but where did it come from? The fact we are NEVER shown this makes Zola's credibility even less plausible. As you mentioned how she handled the situation on the battlefield was not tactically sound at all. Hey new recruits DON'T FREAK OUT that giant freaking dragons are attacking you! It's not like we didn't properly train you for this yet! It's not like I tried to sexually violate one of you either! The way I see it, since the anime did not really care about Zola's presence I see no need to make arbitrary assumptions on why she is like this if it didn't really matter in the first place. It's like trying to make a cake out of potatoes. Stupid. (Even though I say that I remember my stepmom has made a cake out of literally everything, even jello! Wink).


I have no idea how any decent military system could function like this (ESPECIALLY since these people are supposed to be saving the folks in the magical society).

I disagree about the "Jerkface facade" though. I've seen cases of that and this is not one of those times. At this time Ange still see's Norma's a insects and everything they do is pointless in her eyes. She seems to have a "Lone Wolf" thing going on now. She didn't need help from people she see's as insects. Nor does she wish to adapt to their lifestyle. So i think your kind of misinterpreting that she shielding herself with the "Jerkface Facade". I do wish it was true though since it would at the very least add some depth to a otherwise bland character.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15457
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:42 am Reply with quote
Episode 5

We have it folks, the first episode where Ange is nothing but likable. Although this was counted by the fact that I spoiler[really did not like Tusk, sure it was clumsy accidents, but damn right use him to break the restraints after being stripped and tied up, or shooting him and tying him up after what he did on the beach]. Really the whole spoiler[accident thing] is terribly cliché, and was something totally not needed to have somspoiler[e bland anime male lead]. Really if spoiler[he wanted to show he meant no harm he should have dressed her in a shirt and not slept in the bed] in the first place.

Although cliché to the point I would normally feel angry over spoiler[the female lead treating the male lead like that,] I actually totally spoiler[sympathised with what Ange did]. I even laughed at Ange spoiler[having him tie him up with an impression of a hand on his face.] It is kind of funny that I would call this the kindest episode yet, but shespoiler[ was trying to survive]. That Ange spoiler[warmed up from the whole experience] adds the needed depth that we needed.

The preview was also great, the character on them are great leans on the genre, before in what her personality is like, this time because it has her spoiler[going off her experience from the series and saying that it looks to good to be true].

Also we got another ridiculous snake spoiler[bite suck scene in a sensitive spot], I will be expecting this to happen in Chaika or Akame ga Kill next.
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Yttrbio



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 3652
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:18 am Reply with quote
I suppose the show is shifting gears... sort of. Not in any evolutionary sense, but more in the "Well, we've milked those themes, bring in a new set" sense.
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Cptn_Taylor



Joined: 08 Nov 2013
Posts: 925
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:43 am Reply with quote
Yttrbio wrote:
I suppose the show is shifting gears... sort of. Not in any evolutionary sense, but more in the "Well, we've milked those themes, bring in a new set" sense.


I don't see any sort of shifting gears except for Ange being a little bit well manered/less bitch with her collegues. As for the thing most despise in this series, gratuitous fanservice it's still going to be there.

This episode was interesting, extremely funny, and we got to see some interesting flashbacks. Villkis belonged to Jill so it wasn't built for Ange. Dragons are captured. For what ? And of course the greatest mystery of them all spoiler[ can males be normos ? Tusk doesn't seem to have the ability to use mana so ? Question Question ]
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23758
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:54 am Reply with quote
I exulted in episode 5. Not one, not two, but three - count 'em, THREE - spoiler[vage faceplants]! Sadly, my fave example of the trope was absent: the one where a spoiler[femme "accidentally" falls on a someone's face in a sitting position.] Oh well, there's still 20 glorious more episodes to go, so lots a time for that one.

And the above total doesn't even count the now classic, spoiler["suck venom out of a high on the thigh snake bite"] gambit.

I swear, it's like the writers sit down and go, "okay, how can we make this eppie as awesome for Blood- as possible?"

I really love this trashy, go for it show - I LOVE IT!!!

One bit of confusion for me ... I thought only spoiler[females could use Mana?] Wasn't that established in eppie 1?

I liked spoiler[Tusk and hope we see more of him], soon. spoiler["You're violent, but you're pretty and cute and beautiful."] Smooth talker!
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13224
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:58 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
Really if spoiler[he wanted to show he meant no harm he should have dressed her in a shirt and not slept in the bed] in the first place.


It's common knowledge that to warm some one up skin-to-skin contact is best.

I found Tusk to be pretty enjoyable. Miyano always sounds like he's having a lot of fun with these kinds of roles. I hope people can now shut up about the him being Kira thing. It seems that he's spoiler[a male norma, something inherited from his mother no doubt. Since I don't think female normas get the chance to start families that's likely why male normas are unheard of.]

I'm sure some one will claim this, but Ange's turn at the end is not an ass pull. spoiler[Hanging out with Tusk gave her time to unwind and lighten up a bit, and learning that Vivian and Ersha were actively searching for her when she thought she was left for dead contributed a lot.] She should be much more likable now.

Blood- wrote:
One bit of confusion for me ... I thought only spoiler[females could use Mana?] Wasn't that established in eppie 1?


No, it was that spoiler[norma are only female.]
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HaruhiToy



Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4118
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:10 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
I exulted in episode 5. Not one, not two, but three - count 'em, THREE - spoiler[vage faceplants]!

I think that is an anime record and that's saying something. But you should also count the spoiler[near oral sex venom sucking] incident as well.
Quote:
I liked spoiler[Tusk and hope we see more of him], soon. spoiler["You're violent, but you're pretty and cute and beautiful."] Smooth talker!

I liked how her reaction to that was delayed.

Now we can see how cute Ange can be when she wants.
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Cptn_Taylor



Joined: 08 Nov 2013
Posts: 925
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:21 pm Reply with quote
Do you like this soup ? No but I'll take another spoonfull of it.
Go Ange. Cool Stay classy as ever. Mr. Green
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23758
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:32 pm Reply with quote
HT, as a trope purist, I cannot count the spoiler["here, let me suck this icky venom out of your smooth, supple upper thigh."] See, the whole point of the, "oops, oh noes, spoiler[my face has completely accidentally ended up in your vage!"] trope is that the contact HAS to be accidental.

Say what you will, but spoiler[Tusk PLANNED to slurp that snake juice out of her taut, succulent leg flesh. Oh yes he did.]
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HaruhiToy



Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4118
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:43 pm Reply with quote
Now that we are all done being excited, does anyone besides me find it annoying that nobody including Ange seems to notice that her ring has some significant effect on the Valkyriss?
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 13224
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:52 pm Reply with quote
Not really. It's only happened twice and both times no one was paying attention to her hand.
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