Forum - View topicCross Ange: Rondo of Angels and Dragons (TV).
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23754 |
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Yeah, I don't know why Bugnin and Haruhi Toy continue to lump in Sylvia's reaction to Ange with Julio's. To me, the show has made it very clear that Julio was using Ange's secret to gain power. However, for all we know, he is genuinely disgusted by Normas as the rest of society, it's just that he's willing to use that to become the Big Cheese.
It seems to me that Sylvia has become unhinged by the death of her parents and is no doubt being manipulated by Julio to exacerbate the situation. We saw in Ange's memories that Sylvia originally didn't blame her for her accident but when she is whipping Ange she's raving about, "and this is for throwing me off your horse!" This show is unsubtle enough that I believe Ange's memories are reliable and we are supposed to understand that Sylvia has been driven nutso by events and Julio (plus the corrosive anti-Norma sentiment that pervades society). I agree that Julio's plan to lure Ange back is an implicit recognition that he, at least, realizes that Normas are not slavering, evil psychopaths, but I don't think Sylvia is in any condition to be drawing any conclusions. Girl be crazy with grief and Julio mind-poisoning. One think I hope we see, but haven't so far, is some expression of remorse from Ange with respect to her own anti-Norma feelings that we saw in the first episode. She was a right bitch to that woman whose child was being taken away. Sure, I get why'd she'd be pissed with her society for how she has been treated, but I hope she remembers, "hey man, I used to be like that, too." |
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Bugnin
Posts: 575 |
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Nope, sorry. Not going to absolve Sylphia of what she did and blame everything everyone does on Julio for no reason.
Sylphia is not some innocent victim: she sent that fake distress call, knowing Ange would come running back to her. That's not the mind of someone being confused or manipulated. She understood Ange cared for her and she played that card so she could have fun tortuing her. Sylphia did not talk to Ange like she was a monster; she talked to her as if she were a lower form of life, like she was insulted to learn she was related to a dog. She enjoyed whipping her sister's skin open. There was not a shred or hesitation. If her feelings were hurt, she would have had a completely different reaction. Short of some new exposition showcasing Julio literally forcing people to thin like that, he is responsible for his actions and his alone. Syphia is a sadistic monster, as evidenced by her own conduct. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23754 |
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The designation of Sylvia as a "sadistic monster" indicates that that is an inherent characteristic of hers. In other words, let's say Ange actually was a normal Mana User and the events of episode 1 never happen. So Sylvia's mother isn't shot to death, her father isn't executed and her sister isn't unmasked as a dangerous psychopath Norma.
You're telling me we'd still be seeing evidence of Sylvia as a sadistic monster? I don't think so. As I've said before, this show is not particularly subtle. I don't believe for a moment it is trying to indicate that Sylvia has ALWAYS been a sadistic monster and we were just never shown any evidence. To me, it is pretty clear the show is demonstrating that Sylvia has been driven coo-coo by events and Julio's nefarious influence. Please forward any evidence FROM THE SHOW that you feel contradicts that view. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13224 |
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If she did enjoy it we'd have seen a huge grin on her face while she held the whip. But instead her face was twisted in anger and hate.
What we have here is a classic case of the fundamental attribution error. |
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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I am pretty sure she does -- see below.
Actually the evidence is that she was although I wasn't arguing that. So was Ange and the rest of the family except for the executed parents and Momoka. The thing was Sylvia's focus for hate -- and Ange's -- simply wasn't Ange because All Was Right With The World. I suspect that if it was Sylvia that was revealed to be Norma and not Ange, Ange would have reacted the way Sylvia did. Ange knows this and Ange lucked out by escaping the hate trap. That's why she thanked her brother at the end there. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23754 |
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Wait a minute - you are arguing that there is evidence that Sylvia was always a sadistic monster based on the fact that the society she comes from has a default setting towards Normas that is sadistically monstrous? That's weak reasoning.
The fact is that we don't know what Sylvia's reaction to Ange being revealed to be a Norma would have been if a) her mother hadn't been shot, b) her father hadn't been executed, c) Julio wasn't pouring poison into her ear (this by the way is presumptive since we don't actually see scenes of this happening, but I don't really consider it a stretch). When we saw Sylvia back in episode one, we didn't see any evidence of her being a sadistic monster. When we saw her in Ange's memories, we didn't see any evidence of her being a sadistic monster. Nine episodes in, nobody should be really in doubt about Cross Ange's unsubtle approach to melodrama. The show wanted to rub both Ange and Hilda's noses in their Norma status. It wanted to show, in a hammerblow obvious style, that they have no friends, no allies, no reason to go back to their original homes. In order to do that, the show decided to show Ange's "sweet" disabled sister turning on her. The reasons she turned on her are obvious - at least to me and they have nothing to do with Sylvia being inherently sadistic. |
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HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
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Are you arguing that what Angelise did to that unnamed mother of the Norma baby on a city street wasn't sadistic? Or Angelises's open fantasy of eliminating all Norma wasn't sick and perverted at its root? Ange was just like Sylvia is now. That's the evidence. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23754 |
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You don't seem to be understanding my point. Both you and Bugnin seem to be suggesting that Sylvia is inherently sadistic person as evidenced by how she treats Ange.
My point is that there is no evidence that she is inherently sadistic. My point is that she has gone loco under the pressure of having her mother be shot, her father executed, her creepy brother poisoning her mind and the shock of having a previously "perfect" older sister being unmasked as a Norma - something that brings shame and suspicion on the entire royal family. Saying, in effect, well everybody in that society is inherently sadistic because of how they treat Normas and therefore, by definition, Sylvia is inherently sadistic, is weak reasoning. It doesn't really address my point that Sylvia acted the way she did towards Ange due to the factors I listed above as opposed to your run of the mill, "gosh, just like everybody else, I rilly hates the Normas so I'll just be cruel for kicks." |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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Using "sadistic" implies they take pleasure from the act. They've shown no such signs of that (if the show was really as trashy as people claim it to be we definitely would have seen Sylphia having an orgasm with each strike).
People aren't treating norma they way they are because they're all fundamentally evil. They're doing it because that's their civic duty. They've been taught that what they're doing is the right thing to do and so they're doing it. Some one you know commits a crime, so you report them to the police. Are you some evil fiend because you ruined the life of some one you know, or are you a good citizen who brought a criminal to justice? It should be noted that Julio assumed Tusk was a norma sympathizer, so people like that do exist. One problem I did have was Ange going on about not having friends, but just earlier she was thinking about Momoka, Vivian and the others and how they accepted her. Why did she suddenly discount them? |
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Bugnin
Posts: 575 |
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This is equal parts sick and absurd. The "civic duty" argument falls flat. Nobody took part in the lynch mob out of a feeling of responsibility. That's not what lynch mobs are. You had people from the crowd smiling, laughing, demanding to record it on video. This was entertainment. |
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HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
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I wouldn't call it entertainment, but the attitude is actually a form of hysteria motivated by fear. Note that many members of a mob will be acting out of fear of the mob. They really don't want to see any violence but they are afraid that it will suddenly be directed at them if they aren't seen to go along. That's why they show great enthusiasm -- it is actually protective coloration. 
Check out the last character in the GIF. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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I do believe the word is "justice." They are witnessing a monster get the punishment she deserves so yeah, they'd certainly be happy about it. A lot of people are happy when they learn an evil doer has been dealt with. Look at how people reacted with Saddam Hussein was captured and when Osama Bin Laden was killed.
Your claim is that they're only doing it because they're evil people who get off on the suffering of others, which is not the case. We can say what they're doing is horrible because of our culture, but their culture says their actions are perfectly acceptable. If Sylphia was so evil, why was she sad her parents died? Shouldn't she be cackling maniacally because those no good norma sympathisers are dead? |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23754 |
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Episode 11
Interesting. So we learn some new stuff. Like the fact that spoiler[Dragon Chicks] are a thing. Well, that certainly increases the possibilities of even more hot yuri action! Seems like Uncoolio Julio is spoiler[creepily under the sway of a Dragon Chick pretending to be his moms and using Purple Jesus/teh secks to get her way.] It also seems like he (the Royal Family?) has the spoiler[ability to open hot, steaming Dragon Holes in specific locations.] And it seems like Stinky Ange had some spoiler[sort of vision where she and that Other Dragon Chick are, like, lovey-dovey] and stuff? Like I say - interesting. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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spoiler[Past lives, yo. Their fates are forever intertwined, or something.] Ange and Hilda actually make a great duo. So next episode I'll going out on a limb and say spoiler[Vivian is going to turn into a dragon. That last shot isn't subtle about telling us something's going to happen to her, and that dragon in the preview does look like it's acting silly. Perhaps this plant thing they lost keeps norma from changing into dragons or something.] |
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HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
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Yeah but it was Salia that got the crotch grab. I guess that's payback for shoving Ange out into the hall naked. I reiterate my nomination of Emma as the Most Useless Officer In Charge Of Anything. Chris and Rosalie really seem into each other -- any given moment they are in the sack together. I really hope they make up with Hilda but they won't be like before. Damn that island took a hit. They lost their graveyard and beach. Was the bath on that side too? They also answered a question on where they keep the Norma that are too young to fight. That island isn't that big but they seem to get a lot into it. Nothing keeps Vivian down. Literally nothing. |
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