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SailorTralfamadore



Joined: 25 Feb 2014
Posts: 499
Location: Keep Austin Weeb
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:06 pm Reply with quote
addiemon wrote:
I am very curious to read the studies that you will hopefully cite that prove your point.


100 to 1 his "proof" is an article from a right-wing journalist manipulating a study's data to support the sexist status quo they've already established in their head, even though the original study says nothing of the sort.

"Evo psych"-loving people I disagree with politically like to say they're the ones who "respect science" but the sexist distortions nearly always come from articles in non-science publications (or pop-science ones that no one in those fields actually take very seriously, e.g. Psychology Today) from journalists who either lack the appropriate scientific literacy or don't really care. As you showed, if you go to the source, to the original academic journals, they never actually say that stuff. In fact, the actual studies usually say the complete opposite.
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Charagon



Joined: 31 May 2009
Posts: 17
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:16 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Charagon wrote:
One side of this issue has a whole tag dedicated to showing how diverse and inclusive gaming is, filled with people of every race, gender, and sexual orientation.

The other side is full of dudes dismissing, mocking, or "mansplaining" to women that don't share the same opinion as them. There is a misogyny problem with GamerGate, and it's easy to see where it's coming from.


For the sake of my sanity, I'm going to go ahead and attribute this to you being utterly dishonest and not you actually believing something this delusional.
I didn't think I could make my satire any more obvious, so... I'm glad you manged to pick up on it.



Cloe wrote:
Fedora-san wrote:
Let's be direct though, is there a dialog that needs to happen to begin with? How many women actually want to work in games but are kept out due to alleged misogyny, and how many women don't want to work in games to begin with because they flat out have zero interest?

Ex-Art/Animation Director from a game company here, now working in TV animation. I can only offer you this anecdotal proof (much thanks to addiemon for the science throw-down), but I feel the need to speak up for myself rather than have you speak for me, and other women working in or aspiring to work in games.

I was offered a position this week as a concept artist at the game studio behind Shovel Knight. I'm friends with the studio founder, their work is exciting, the studio is sure to flourish, and they gave me a really great offer... which I declined. Specifically because I've had bad experiences working in games in the past (which I've talked about in detail on twitter) but more importantly because I've spent the past few weeks watching all this gamergate drama unfold and thought "This is not worth it." Why willingly put myself in a position where my artwork--with my name attached to it--will be going out to be consumed by a group that regards my gender with contempt? Where my public thoughts and opinions will be undermined and questioned at every turn? Where if I--GOD FORBID--happen to date someone in the gaming dating pool in the future, I am suddenly in danger of being the target of an online hate campaign? NOT. WORTH. IT.

Having worked in several studio environments--both for video games and television animation studios--I can tell you that "boy's club" mentality is FAR more prevalent in game studios--from things like having unisex bathrooms and men's rooms but no ladies' rooms to things like me having to deal with "pussy" being thrown around cavalierly in the workplace and being told "Just don't let it bother you" when I complained. Many women don't want to work in games because those workplaces make them feel like outsiders in a thousand small, subconscious ways and it is exhausting.

But on top of all that, to know that the people I'm working so hard for and creating content for--people I want to support and enjoy my work, the game FANS--to know that within them is a subset who would gleefully send me rape and death threats probably for a reason as innocuous as being friendly with the studio founder before I was hired (this is seriously my thought process as I mull over the pros and cons of any job offer--do you really think men spend time worrying about this?)--well, that is just an extra slap in the face that I don't need.

That sucks. And it's something that absolutely needs to change.

But I don't have a solution to that problem. When one arises, I'll gleefully support it, but in the meantime I'd like to focus on terrible journalistic practices in games journalism. Preferably without being told I'm a terrible person who hates women in the process.

As the Escapist has shown, that's something where something CAN be done.
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addiemon



Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 93
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:34 pm Reply with quote
Charagon wrote:
That sucks. And it's something that absolutely needs to change.

But I don't have a solution to that problem. When one arises, I'll gleefully support it...


Perhaps I can help! Solutions include:

- If you are writing a comment on a sexism-in-gaming article and your primary discussion contribution is to nay-say the victim(s), try to shift the topic to gaming journalism, or talk about the injustice that men face, please, just don't post that comment. No matter how "correct" you think it is.

- Continue to raise awareness that this is a real problem, and not a figment of hysterical female imaginations and/or made up by attention-seeking women.

- Don't harass female devs, journos, or gamers.

- Call it out when you see sexist or harassing behavior, whether committed by devs, journos, or the fan community.

- Be open-minded and listen to women when they talk about their experiences with sexism in gaming or any fandom-- in other words, don't just respond with "not me"/not all men, explanations/excuses, pseudo-scientific justifications, etc.

- Do not claim that terrible journalism is more important than sexual-based harassment

- When other people argue that there is nothing they can do about the sexism issue, share this list or something like it

These are all things you can do (or hopefully continue to do?) while also working on your journalism cause. There's absolutely no reason you can't be doing both. Assuming that you're not using the journalism issue as an excuse to not think about the sexism issue...right? Smile
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:43 pm Reply with quote
Fedora-san wrote:

It truly has been a very interesting thing. I think people should check out Christina Sommers's new video on the subject if people are interested in someone who's actual career is debating women's rights issues and writing scholarly books opinion is on the issue. It's a very different perspective than most blogger feminists have, if nothing else. I'm glad GamerGate got attention from people who normally wouldn't bother with video games talking and noticing the issue, if nothing else. Different viewpoints are always good.


And yet, her video is not anything resembling a serious discussion on the issue.
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Charagon



Joined: 31 May 2009
Posts: 17
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:14 pm Reply with quote
addiemon wrote:
Perhaps I can help! Solutions include:

- If you are writing a comment on a sexism-in-gaming article and your primary discussion contribution is to nay-say the victim(s), try to shift the topic to gaming journalism, or talk about the injustice that men face, please, just don't post that comment. No matter how "correct" you think it is.
Likewise, don't try and shift something that's about gaming journalism to sexism-in-gaming.

addiemon wrote:
- Continue to raise awareness that this is a real problem, and not a figment of hysterical female imaginations and/or made up by attention-seeking women.
You say that as though these are mutually exclusive concepts.

addiemon wrote:
- Don't harass female devs, journos, or gamers.
How about don't harass anybody regardless of gender.
What the hell is the matter with you?

addiemon wrote:
- Call it out when you see sexist or harassing behavior, whether committed by devs, journos, or the fan community.
Already do that. Doesn't seem to be working, but I do it.

addiemon wrote:
- Be open-minded and listen to women when they talk about their experiences with sexism in gaming or any fandom-- in other words, don't just respond with "not me"/not all men, explanations/excuses, pseudo-scientific justifications, etc.
See above.

addiemon wrote:
- Do not claim that terrible journalism is more important than sexual-based harassment
A. You don't get to dictate what is or isn't important.
B. It's not a zero sum game. Focusing on one does not detract from the other.

addiemon wrote:
- When other people argue that there is nothing they can do about the sexism issue, share this list or something like it
This list kinda sucked, to be honest. So no. I'll wait for something better.
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addiemon



Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 93
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:51 pm Reply with quote
Charagon wrote:
addiemon wrote:
- Don't harass female devs, journos, or gamers.
How about don't harass anybody regardless of gender.
What the hell is the matter with you?


If you are attempting to suggest that I condone the harassment of men-- rather than providing a specific suggestion for the specific purpose of diminishing a specific brand of sexism in gaming that is directed at women --then all I can say is that I think you are being deliberately obtuse, attempting to build a straw man to argue against, and that you are not actually open to having a discussion.

Which is a key part of the problem that some of us have been trying to convey, so, thanks for the case study I suppose.

That said, if you truly believe that the corruption of game journalists is more important than the safety and well-being of all members of the gaming community, I suppose all I can say is: I question your sense of priorities.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:27 pm Reply with quote
addiemon wrote:
That said, if you truly believe that the corruption of game journalists is more important than the safety and well-being of all members of the gaming community, I suppose all I can say is: I question your sense of priorities.


Um, he did say that there is no need to prioritise anything because it isn't a zero-sum game. You can be staunchly against corruption and staunchly be against sexism.

That's the problem (well, one of many) with gamergate. It tries to make people take artificially-created sides that aren't even diametrically opposed. Gamergate tries to tell us that if we like games then we hate all women, and if we are feminists then we hate all games. That's one of the biggest loads of BS I've ever heard and yet millions of people are told they now have to pick sides in a conflict they didn't even sign up for.

But it's not an either/or situation. Or at least we shouldn't let it be. We should instead demand both. Both sexism and corruption should be stamped out wherever, whenever and however we see it. Arguing about which one is worse just incites pointless arguments and diverts energy away from actually tackling these problems. If even one percent of the debate the internet has generated on this crapstorm was actually used productively we'd have gotten some great traction on both issues.
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addiemon



Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 93
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:37 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
[That's the problem (well, one of many) with gamergate. It tries to make people take artificially-created sides that aren't even diametrically opposed.


That is literally the point I made in my first post in this thread. Smile In these more recent comments I was specifically addressing someone who said that because they "couldn't" do anything about sexism they would do something about journalism instead, followed by someone who reacted negatively to my suggestion against claiming it to be more important than harassment to victims of harassment, in threads about harassment. Smile

I absolutely 100% believe that we can have better journalism AND better treatment/representation of women in gaming!
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:09 pm Reply with quote
addiemon wrote:
That is literally the point I made in my first post in this thread. Smile In these more recent comments I was specifically addressing someone who said that because they "couldn't" do anything about sexism they would do something about journalism instead, followed by someone who reacted negatively to my suggestion against claiming it to be more important than harassment to victims of harassment, in threads about harassment. Smile


Ah, I see. My apologies. This thread is so crazy it has been difficult to keep track of who has said what and also where the discussion is at.

addiemon wrote:
I absolutely 100% believe that we can have better journalism AND better treatment/representation of women in gaming!


And I 100% agree with you.

One good thing has come out of gamergate in my opinion; it was common knowledge that female characters were poorly represented inside games (e.g. overwhelming percentage of lead characters are male), but I had no idea about the rampant sexism towards female developers outside games too. Stuff like what Cloe said has been a real eye-opener for me and I highly doubt that I'm alone in thinking that.
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Guile



Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 595
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:18 pm Reply with quote
HitokiriShadow wrote:
And yet, her video is not anything resembling a serious discussion on the issue


An article that prefaces itself with "nutjob conservabot" is best taken with a grain of salt. Wearing such extreme political ideals on one's sleeve is a bad way to start a discussion. Though it appears this is a blog, and not a news article. In this topic, Sommers has far more academic weight to her than random forum posters and bloggers do. That includes both myself and everyone else here. I certainly value her opinion more than the critics on gaming websites, because they are, after all, bloggers at the end of the day and don't have PhD in psychology or women's studies. Not even Ms. Sarkeesian can claim that as she focused her career on being a critic, not an activist or psychologist.

Calling Sommers is a conservabot is incredibly ignorant. She's a registered democrat and pro-choice. Am I wrong in assuming conservabot is a derogatory term for conservative? Or did the blogger just decide to throw random insults without knowing who he was talking about? It's distasteful either way, and sets the tone for the rest of the article and it should be promptly ignored. This is why I don't listen to bloggers and prefer people with experience in the fields they're talking about.

I found the video very interesting myself, because it mirrors what I have thought for a long time now. The statistics that tries to push that women outnumber male gamers is extremely misrepresented. I had assumed it counted mobile and Facebook games, and yet all the blogs and sites which used it as a springboard to preach about women dominating the industry were doing so under false pretenses by insisting it was about the AAA industry they cover. It just made very little sense.

When Nintendo released their demographic breakdown of their consoles, it seemed to push it over the edge. Only 7% of WiiU owners were female. That seems far more inline with how I felt video game demographics were. And I find it hard to believe Nintendo is less gender-neutral than Microsoft and Sony are, so I can only imagine what the numbers for PlayStation and Xbox are if they ever chose to release them. Saying big budget games need to be marketed towards the people playing Candy Crush Saga seems like a financial disaster waiting to happen.


Last edited by Guile on Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lostrune



Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Posts: 313
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:29 pm Reply with quote
ikillchicken wrote:
Lostrune does not now have, nor has he ever had in his entire history on ANN, a valid point.


Ouch, what'd I ever do to you? Laughing

Quote:
Women are not a hive mind. Disagreeing with certain women who side with Gamergate is not "attacking women". Nor is it in any way inconsistent with claiming to stand with women in general against sexism. The only hypocrisy here comes from people like lostrune who don't give a shit when the majority of women disagree with them. But as soon as they find a handful of women that agree, suddenly they're up on the battlements waving the vagina flag: "A WOMAN AGREES WITH US SO WE CAN'T BE SEXIST AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU'RE ATTACKING WOMEN!!!" It's really transparent bullshit. Nothing but a selective co-opting of principles only applied when it suits them.


No, no, it's more like I've seen clockwork responses from people who claim to be against sexism virtually demanding every women who would dare speak out against them provide personal information to prove themselves. I find that kind of hypocritical, y'know? No one does it for men, so why should women be singled out an made to publicly "out" themselves just because a man demands it from them? Sometimes if they don't, they'll dox her themselves despite saying being against that. As I said, argue the people, not the category, it'll be more respectful. No one can prove who the 'majority of women' is or who they stand for, since as you say women are not a hive-mind, so trying to argue that is a bit presumptuous.
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Fedora-san



Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 464
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:34 pm Reply with quote
addiemon wrote:
Fedora-san wrote:
It is a scientifically proven fact men and women have different development cycles for their brains to the point it influences their education and careers.


I acknowledge the physiological differences in male and female brains, but I have not yet read any "proof" that these differences directly correlate to differing interests. Permit me to use my university library access to cite some scholarly works on the subject:

1) "'Men and women have different brain architectures, and we don't know what they mean,' says Haier...One thing we know about the brain is that it is vulnerable to the power of suggestion. There is plenty of evidence that when young women are motivated and encouraged, they excel at science." (Ripley, A., Mustafa, N., van Dyk, D., & Plon, U. (2005). WHO SAYS A WOMAN CAN'T BE EINSTEIN?. Time International (South Pacific Edition), (9), 46, emphasis mine.)

2) "The E-S theory does not stereotype...For every ten men, six have a male brain, two have a balanced brain, and two have a female brain. In contrast, for every ten women, four have a female brain, four have a balanced brain, and two have a mail brain. This variation means you cannot tell what kind of brain a person has just from knowing their sex." (Baron-Cohen, S. (2005). The Essential Difference: The Male and Female Brain. Phi Kappa Phi Forum, 85(1), 23-26. Emphasis mine)

3) "Researchers have identified more than 100 structural differences between the male and female brain. These differences are both genetic and socialized..." (King, K., & Gurian, M. (2006). The Brain--His and Hers. Educational Leadership, 64(1), 59, emphasis mine).

In other words, in research conducted in the last ~15 years, there is TONS of evidence supporting that there are physiological differences between the male and female brain. However, not a single one correlates these differences into interest or aptitude for hobbies or careers-- most of them discuss what the differences may mean as far as cognitive impairment or cognitive therapy goes.

Lest I be accused of cherry-picking: My search terms were "difference between male female brain" and I used EBSCOhost's Academic Search Complete, looking at articles from 2000+ with full text available.

I went through quite a few studies and articles, and most of the time there was no way for me to tell based on title whether it would support my view or the opposite. I legitimately did not find a single one supporting the view, much less proving, that the physiological differences between male and female brains (which I'm happy to acknowledge) definitively correlate to differences in our interests or aptitudes.

I am very curious to read the studies that you will hopefully cite that prove your point.


First, I'd also like to thank you for taking this seriously and not just shouting lexicon jargon as a substituent for debating like some people do. I don't like to having to look up words I'm being called to know if I'm being insulted or not.

I briefly read some of the sources you cited as much as I could find them, and it seems they tend to mull over the middle-ground more than anything else in the end.

"I don't exclude biology as an explanation," Xie said, "but I know biological factors would not play a role unless they interacted with social conditions."

I never said social aspects were not a factor, I admitted that nurture is a factor in our lives just as nature is, I just said it was preposterous to denounce biology as a factor in lives. Moreso, my original point focused on lack of interest in general for the fields. You can only get as many women in these fields as they are willing to take an interest in them. Women are not majoring in programming, for whichever reason one chooses to argue, biology, sociology, or other. Cloe's post was a nice insight, and I'm sorry she felt that way to not accept a career, but even if we accept it as the standard rather than anecdotal, is there that prevalent environment in other male-dominated fields like engineering? She mentioned the large discrepancy between TV and gaming, but what futher discrepancy between those and other paths that are male dominated? Is it fair to say they're male dominated because they're filled with boys-only club, or are they a boys-only club because of lack of female interesting in those careers? How do different cultures factor into this? People claim Japan is far more sexist, yet they have more in the way of women working in these fields than America does on average. Or do they just have more women interested in these fields and even if it's sexist they do it because they genuinely enjoy the careers?

I'm not sure how much scientific research there is into these specific subjects, especially when it comes to other countries. I'll admit I have far more limited instant-access sources to pull from as my days of student resources are over. Of course, psychology aspect is just one half of the claim. Physical aspects are far more apparent in our society and easier to point to. Athletics, rescue personnel, and other careers which focus more on the physical aspect of the job tend to be harder for women to get into, or in some cases require segregation due to the differences.

HitokiriShadow wrote:
And yet, her video is not anything resembling a serious discussion on the issue.


On one side of the argument we have a Gawker article written in a jokingly smug "Heh, I sure showed her" tone as if it's waiting for a laugh-track from an imaginary audience that doesn't exist, and on the other a woman with a PhD who was arguing for women's rights before said writer of mentioned article was probably even born. I know this is the Stephen Colbert generation, but is this suppose to be a legitimate choice?

The person who wrote that article couldn't even do a 2 second search to see if Sommers was a republican or democrat. Kotaku, Polygon, Gamespot, and the usual sites who reported on this video also labeled her some conservative boogieman before being corrected and they made redactions. I generally stay out of politics for these kinds of knee-jerk reactions; as if what political party you belong to suddenly makes everything you say valid or invalid, and their political party is always the correct one, naturally. People seem to care way more about labels than actual points when it comes to politics. And the real funny thing is she never once mentioned her political stances in the video so it was entirely unprovoked.
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SailorTralfamadore



Joined: 25 Feb 2014
Posts: 499
Location: Keep Austin Weeb
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:47 pm Reply with quote
Fedora-san wrote:
The person who wrote that article couldn't even do a 2 second search to see if Sommers was a republican or democrat. Kotaku, Polygon, Gamespot, and the usual sites who reported on this video also labeled her some conservative boogieman before being corrected and they made redactions. I generally stay out of politics for these kinds of knee-jerk reactions; as if what political party you belong to suddenly makes everything you say valid or invalid, and their political party is always the correct one, naturally.


I'm not surprised you "generally stay out of politics", since the assumption that someone is automatically feminist and progressive if they're a registered Democrat betrays a lack of attention to American electoral political coverage. There are elected Democratic politicians who are moderates or even outright conservatives. So Sommers's party affiliation isn't relevant to dismissing her ideas as outdated and anti-feminist, especially when the issue at-hand is not exactly related to any current hot-button ballot issues. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if a ton of the people I disagree with politically are Democrats, with the kinds of casual misogyny I've seen displayed by "liberal" dudes.

What is more relevant here--and telling--is the fact that she's affiliated with the American Enterprise Institute, a well-known conservative think tank that contributed many of the major architects of George W. Bush's presidential policy. And most articles I read did mention that connection.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:09 pm Reply with quote
The Sommers video in a nutshell:

Are games sexist?

-More men play them than women! [A totally unrelated question to the question of the video]

-They don't make you sexist! [Also a different question and not something anyone is really claiming]

-Or violent! [A transparent attempt to equate feminist criticism with scientifically disproven fear mongering]

-Hipsters! Culture Studies! [Ad hominem buzzwords]

-Gamers are totally awesome people! [Pathetic ass kissing]

Therefore, games aren't sexist!

lostrune wrote:
ikillchicken wrote:
Lostrune does not now have, nor has he ever had in his entire history on ANN, a valid point.


Ouch, what'd I ever do to you? Laughing


Partially answering your own question there. Laughing

Quote:
I find that kind of hypocritical, y'know? No one does it for men, so why should women be singled out an made to publicly "out" themselves just because a man demands it from them?


Nobody should be, or I would argue is being, forced to out themselves just for being a woman instead of a man. But if you're going to play the "I am a woman and I'm #notyoursheild" card while simultaneously defending a movement rife with sexism and sockpuppet accounts pretending to be women...well it's kinda a legitimate question to ask: Are you really? They shouldn't and don't have to respond to that question. Nobody is forcing them. But obviously their comment isn't going to carry much weight unless they do.

Quote:
No one can prove who the 'majority of women' is or who they stand for, since as you say women are not a hive-mind, so trying to argue that is a bit presumptuous.


No. Those two things have literally nothing to do with one another. To apply the fallacy that you're right/not sexist because not all women agree with social justice issues or because some support Gamergate is to treat women as a hive-mind. It's to act as if women don't have individual perspectives and having a woman agree with you constitutes all women agreeing with you. But there is nothing remotely unreasonable about observing that the majority of those individual perspectives tend to fall on one side of the issue. Or to recognize that this is maybe something that bears taking into consideration when talking about gender issues.
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:39 pm Reply with quote
Guile wrote:
HitokiriShadow wrote:
And yet, her video is not anything resembling a serious discussion on the issue


When Nintendo released their demographic breakdown of their consoles, it seemed to push it over the edge. Only 7% of WiiU owners were female. That seems far more inline with how I felt video game demographics were. And I find it hard to believe Nintendo is less gender-neutral than Microsoft and Sony are, so I can only imagine what the numbers for PlayStation and Xbox are if they ever chose to release them. Saying big budget games need to be marketed towards the people playing Candy Crush Saga seems like a financial disaster waiting to happen.


I just want to say that it's incredibly telling that you only commented about the "conservobot" comment and that they're "just a blogger" that doesn't have a phD in something or another rather than comment about ANY of the points they bring up.
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