Forum - View topicInterview: Gen Urobuchi
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EyeOfPain
Posts: 312 |
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That GIF is pretty horribly structured. I never did understand the statement that Rebellion Homu was out of character. She spent years, potentially decades, repeatedly trying to stop Dokes from sacrificing herself. That is crazy obsessive, and making herself a villain to keep Dokes from having to take the life of another magical girl must have been a small sacrifice in her mind. |
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Juno016
 Posts: 2381 |
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As someone who agrees with that image, I'm also going to agree with the person above me and say that it's horribly confusing and just as construed because it doesn't clarify anything itself. It's missing gaps of information and tries to be clever by repeating itself, but the repetition only serves to confuse more than anything. ESPECIALLY to someone who might not have actually understood the film or series the way this image assumes in the first place. It would be much better for someone to create a really organized bullet-pointed video that goes into depth about each thing as it simultaneously displays the film and the key scenes in the background or as examples. A few people, including myself, have considered making this sort of video, though we just need some better way to introduce ourselves to the field of video-making. |
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SquadmemberRitsu
 Posts: 1391 |
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Just to clarify, I didn't make it. I found it somewhere else and thought it was very straightforward and easy to understand.
Although I've seen the series about 6 times over (2 times with sub, 4 times with dub) and Rebellion about 5 times now (First Camrip, Second at the cinema, next few times on Blu-ray) so this is all stuff I know already. I can't really vouch for those who misunderstand her motivations since I was never part of that camp. Even when I didn't fully understand everything because of the crappy camrip subtitles it still made sense to me that she'd do something like that based on her previous actions. But speaking personally I'd prefer to read something like that than an overlong essay since it's the sort of stuff you could learn by simply paying attention during crucial points. I've seen a lot of bad and/or underwhelming sequels in my time but Rebellion is so far way from being either one of those it's not funny. The pointless filler sequels to Blue Exorcist and Steins;Gate (Which were still good but nothing special), FMA Conqueror of Shamballa's magic Nazis, Evangelion 3.0's colossal amounts of retcon and general stupidity, the Highschool/College manga for K-ON which completely ignores the underlying themes of the original series in favour of lame repetitive gags, Rebellion isn't anything like them. It's a tightly written and generally well constructed film from start from start to finish and a substantial addition to the franchise that's arguably even better than the original. And that's certainly a lot more than I could have ever hoped for. |
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5823 Location: Virginia, United States |
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@EyeOfPain
It's all been done already. As shown in the TV series, Madoka saved everyone in the past, present, and the future from being witches. Just because you spend all your time trying to save your loved ones, doesn't by itself make your crazy or psychotic. Yes it did cause issues, but a strong person can overcome. @Juno016 Homura's actions are evil at the end of Rebellion. She went against Madoka's wishes, stole Madoka's freedom, and memory. She is basically holding Madoka and her friends prisoner in a world of her own creation, not to mention stealing their memories. How much more evil can you get. One might say she did her evil with glee too. The key point in Rebellion though, is that Homura was willing to sacrifice herself (never to see Madoka again, never ever, not even in the afterlife) in the final battle with the Kyubey's. I simply cannot see that Homura, pulling the crap she did at the end of Rebellion, especially when she was going to be rewarded by entering Madoka's heaven with Madoka by her side. If the writers wanted to blame the Kyubeys for torturing and twisting Homura's character, then they should have never included that in Rebellion, because it showed Homura as the strong individual she is. The writers looked at Homura's TV character with suspicion because they had too. After all, they wanted her to be the evil villain of Rebellion. I know a lot of people see Homura as a seriously flawed individual, but my take from the TV series, is that she is a strong character, who cares about her friends, and who under goes some dark times trying to save her friends, especially Madoka. Homura comes out stronger in the end and more at peace with herself. |
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Polycell
 Posts: 4623 |
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As far as I remember, the basic story for Rebellion came to Urobuchi after actually watching the series; unsurprisingly, the basic premise itself is perfectly fitting with both Kyubey's and Homura's personalities.
I think there's two things to remember: A) Homura kicked things off by giving into her despair of being completely separated from Madoka and B) Madoka, her character development temporarily nullified, was saying things that could easily be construed to mean she needed saving from the fate she chose. She might be strong, but in the end she's still a middle school girl who's been through hell only to fail in her goal. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5823 Location: Virginia, United States |
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That might not be entirely true. As shown in the TV series, fighting superclass witches, like Walpurgis Nacht seemed to drain Magical Girl's soul gems dry. In one time-line Madoka saved Homura by killing Walpurgis Nacht in one super shot, but Madoka turned immediately into a witch, presumably because that one shot drained her soul gem dry. That could be what happened to Homura, so instead of a super witch, it was a super demon, or a demon (first person shooter type ) raid. There should be no despair over Madoka, because when Homura's time came she would be reunited in Madoka heaven with Madoka 'forever'. That afterlife looked pretty enticing too. Also, Madoka did let Homura know that she was looking over her. As the very last scene in Episode 12 showed. |
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Juno016
Posts: 2381 |
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spoiler[She was subconsciously holding them prisoner in her Witch barrier for much of the film and it was her experience there that everyone was HAPPIER that way, as was portrayed when she rode the gondola through the archways. It was the world she created. In the new world, too, she is able to do that for Madoka--give her a stable, happy life. She's betraying Madoka's personal desires in order to make her happy, and she knows that, which is why she said that they disagree, but she's fine with it being that way. They've disagreed like that several times in the original series, too. The plot of timelines in the original series WAS pretty much a series of them stepping on each other's desires so they could make the other happy. Homura's decision in Rebellion is no different, and Homura is convinced of this in that flower field. Sure, you may still consider that an "evil" of a sort (the creators invited people to discuss the topic and decide for themselves), but it's a purposeful grey zone. Neither black nor white. And regardless of what you decide, it's not inconsistent with Homura's character.] spoiler[As for Homura refusing Madoka's heaven, that has a ton to do with the incubators' existence. Madoka's "paradise realm", or whatever you want to call it, seems untouchable and perfect. But that's not the case considering the incubators were able to manipulate Madoka into falling into their trap through pure logic. Now that they know that their plan worked and they have a better grasp of what the Law of Cycles is, they can easily come up with another way to secure their Law of Cycles and take control of the Magical Girl system again. If Homura were taken into the Law of Cycles, she could no longer stop them. By taking control of Madoka and taking the incubators under her wing, Homura can put herself in charge and prevent the incubators from doing the same thing again.] Also, let me make it clear that they questioned Homura's character from the TV series during the conception of a sequel as the original series was airing. It wasn't until the film's manuscript was undergoing revisions, long after the original series stopped broadcasting, that the suggestion of spoiler["making Madoka and Homura enemies"] came up. spoiler[Homura was never intended to be a "villain" of any sort until that point.] So you've got your facts wrong and your reasoning on that backwards. And Homura IS a strong character. She can be weak and flawed when her convictions are challenged (which is what they did in both the original series and Rebellion), but that just makes her human. There's nothing wrong with exploring the weaknesses of strong characters. And one final point that should be made clear: Homura's decision at the end did NOT come about because of thespoiler[ influence of the contamination of her Soul Gem.] Much of the staff have argued against this notion. In fact, Saito Chiwa, Homura's voice actress, recorded herself as a really creepy-sounding Homura in the first take on the ending scenes. The scene was included as a bonus in the limited edition because her voice acting was SUPERB. However, they still re-recorded the entire ending of Rebellion so that she sounded more like spoiler[her normal self BECAUSE they didn't want everyone to immediately think that she had fallen off her rocker.] |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5823 Location: Virginia, United States |
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If someone erased or suppressed my memories, I would consider them evil. There is no excuse for taking my free will from me and stealing my memories. Just because it can't be done that easily in real life, doesn't make any less evil.
So yes, I consider Homura's actions evil, because she is stealing something from Madoka, Saki, and all the others. The final scene with Saki and Homura was quite illuminating. I'll say this again, the Homura in Rebellion, who during the final battle with the Khubeys was willing to trap herself for eternity in the witch world with no hope of ever seeing Madoka again, wouldn't pull what she did in the final scenes of Rebellion. For me the writers failed to make Homura's transition to evil believable. We are not going to agree, and I've no problem with that. Just glad you liked the show too. |
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Juno016
Posts: 2381 |
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Then you interpreted her actions as "evil", which is fine. Still, the movie dedicates several complete scenes to transitioning Homura from her self that fights for Madoka's will to her self that "realizes" (true or not) that spoiler[Madoka secretly wishes to be normal again, alongside everyone else.] Her actions at the end of the film correspond to the flower scene, which corresponds directly to what Homura had been saying and believed during the referred scene of episode 12 of the anime. Homura's feelings and actions are consistent with that. They were just raised further in this direction for the film in order to "complete" her as a character and allow her to have her ideal situation, for better or for worse. But yeah, we can disagree and I'm fine with that. I just like to discuss things like this in detail, so thank you for going along with my selfish whims. It's fun. =3 |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Morality is not subject to interpretation. We know what happened and we know Homura's reasoning, it was all infodumped. All that is left is to apply your own moral principles or intuition. If it says that under these circumstances (or any circumstances) taking away one's free will is not justified, then Homura's actions are evil/wrong. You can disagree and judge her differently, but there is no room for interpretations and quotation marks. |
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shamisen the great
 Posts: 658 Location: Oregon, USA |
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Juno016
Posts: 2381 |
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I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that there is a strict "right/good" and "wrong/evil"? And that Homura's actions are already determined to fit into one or the other? Or are you saying that her actions are said to be "evil" in the show, and thus, she's evil and there is no room for interpretation? In the case of the former, I believe the entire issue is morally grey, and thus, there are no "rights" or "wrongs" so much as there are just clashes of values. In the case of the latter, that's what I'm pointing out here. If we determine her actions to be genuinely evil, then her reasoning falters and she becomes nothing more than a shell of her former character--and that's not what happens. Her words themselves don't just tell the audience that she's "evil". They bring up "evil" as a question, not just allowing the audience to decide their moral ground for themselves, but also to question the concept of "evil" itself. Regardless of what you, the audience, thinks, the show does not go into whether or not she is truly "evil It simply has her tell the other characters she's "evil" in a way that forces a viewpoint upon them about her. I'm not putting "evil" in quotation marks to apologize or denounce the concept of evil here. It's to point out that "evil", in the way Homura speaks of it, may not be what she actually thinks or means. Actual evil, if it exists, might be something completely different than what Homura suggests is "evil" about her actions and existence, hence her particular wording. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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As far as the process of making a moral judgement is concerned, her actions based on the information we have were either justified, unjustified or fall under a moral dilemma. For TarsTarkas they were unjustified, so the creators fail to raise a question about values. If you think it falls under a moral grey area, it means your own moral principles can't help you judge her actions, which is fine if your principles are coherent and non-contradictory. However if TarsTarkas or anyone else has made up their mind about the subject based on clear principles, there's little room for discussion about whether creators achieved their goal of moral ambiguity. What you were saying sounded like "Hey, it's fine if you think that way, but, i mean, it's not that clear". Considering her actions, my opinion is, sure, you can interpret her as not being satisfied with how things turned out. To my knowledge however, practically no one was questioning that when the show ended. People were busy praising how well the show tied up everything or deriding it as deus ex machina. I think Rebellion forces an intepretation that lessens Homura's character arc in the show and just messes with the ending thematically. I'm not going to argue about that though, so no response is necessary unless you want to prove me wrong.
Morality is a distinction whether some action or intention is seen as acceptable or not as an "ought". The distinction is made by each moral agent and society simply provides a framework/s of morality that the moral agent can accept or reject fully or to some degree (though in reality it's more complicated than that of course). You're not contradicting me. Values differ, clash and evolve, but in the specific moment where someone makes a moral judgement, their values are set, so the judgement is set as well unless the case makes the person doubt their values. So my point is, if Homura's actions are known and her intentions clear, there is no interpretation necessary to make a moral judgement. Last edited by jl07045 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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shamisen the great
Posts: 658 Location: Oregon, USA |
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^I guess I misinterpreted your statement then. I apologize.
I still disagree that her actions were out of character. Perhaps they came as a surprise, but her spoiler[love/obsession] with Madoka was always present. It's also not clear how much time has passed between the series and Rebellion or how long Homura has been fighting. I will agree that it is fairly clear that Urobuchi did not plan for the story to go the way it did from the start, but the movie felt like a natural progression to me. I don't think it lessens her character so much as give it more depth. Now if another movie or series comes out and she is portrayed as spoiler[a cliche evil villain], then her character will have been diminished. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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To clarify, I was talking about Homura's arc in the show. If we see acceptance of Madoka's choice as the desirable closing point for her arc, then Rebellion messes it up. Does that contribute to her as a character is a different question.
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