Forum - View topicAnswerman - Time Well Spent
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6867 Location: Kazune City |
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Though if restaurants and similar businesses can simply raise prices and/or automate in the event of a wage increase, why are they fighting it tooth and nail? Maybe they're terrified that they won't be able to earn the same kinds of profits on the open market. Because as it stands now, these employers in the US are getting "profit subsidies" in the form of SNAP, Medicaid, Section 8 housing assistance, etc. making up the difference between what these jobs pay and what it takes to survive. I hardly think it's anti-capitalist to ask companies to pay their own labor costs. Higher-wage earners are already paying higher "prices" in the form of taxes to fund those profit subsidies -- whether they patronize the low-wage businesses or not! If wages increase and prices rise to offset them, that at least puts the costs out in the open and lets the consumer decide.
Last edited by Zalis116 on Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TropicaliaSoup
 Posts: 18 |
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I still don't see how doubling the minimum wage would malfunction the way some people are describing. I'm not that passionate about it though. I'm fine with this not being handled on the federal level. The price of living does change depending on where you are in the US; New York city is ridiculous as far as I understand while Atlanta Georgia is much less expensive.
I can't imagine places like McDonald's would overprice themselves (perhaps a $2 menu instead of a $1 menu). I think the positives of this movement are quite apparent. You can't live off minimum wage; so many of these people have two jobs and get government assistance. It's good for the economy to have a strong middle class, and if we're going to have minimum wage laws they shouldn't stay stagnant for as long as they have. |
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GeminiDS85
Posts: 391 |
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While the Japanese pay scale for unskilled service industry workers might be comparable to the United States, there are few mitigating factors that definitely separate the two. First and foremost is that the price for rent in Japan is generally significantly less than the United States. Small, inexpensive one-bedroom apartments are plentiful all across Japan, so it makes it fairly easy for a person making under $10 an hour to live a decent life. I have never personally paid over $400 (40,000 yen) for any apartment I have lived in, and every apartment I have ever lived in has been at least a 1DK. Also, your monthly rent is usually negotiable. I have haggled a couple thousand yen off my monthly rent before.
(Full disclosure: I’ve never made under $20 an hour working in Japan, but my ideas on this subject are based on plenty of first-hand experiences with friends who were/are in this kind of situation.) It should also be taken into consideration that a lot of employers will pay for the employee’s transportation to and from work. I’ve always had all my transportation costs reimbursed by the companies I have worked for, but it does depend on the job. I’m not sure if places like convenience stores pay for their employees’ travel costs, but I know a few friends who have worked at an izakaya and been reimbursed for their travel costs. In regards to the service itself, I would say that Japanese service is a lot better than its American counterpart. However, certain things that are acceptable in America are considered to be extremely rude in Japan. For example, trying to customize a food order at any type of restaurant is often seen as very rude. Also, returning products to a store can be a nightmare. Japanese Store Clerk: “How can I help you?” Me: “I’d like to return these curtains.” Japanese Store Clerk: “Is there a problem with the curtains?” Me: “No. I just decided that I don’t really like them. I haven’t opened them yet. I would just like a refund, please.” Japanese Store Clerk: “I don’t understand.” Me: “I don’t like the curtains. Therefore, I would like to return them and get my money back.” Japanese Store Clerk: “I will call the manager over.” Japanese Store Manager: “How can I help you?” Me: “I don’t like these curtains and haven’t opened them yet, so I want to return them and get my money back.” Japanese Store Manager: “I don’t understand. Is there a problem with the curtains?” …………………………………………… |
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SynergyMan
Posts: 99 |
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Don't Americans on average have a much longer working year than the Japanese? What's with all this "work ethic" crap? Japanese people work some of the shortest hours in the OECD! No-one talks about Hong Kong work ethic or South Korean work ethic or Taiwanese work ethics, even though all of them work much longer than the Japanese. It's also dumb to make generalizations, because the US is a multi-ethnic country and it's a general fact that your race determines your work ethic. If the US had more Japanese-Americans, it would have the " same service" or even better than their brethren at home, given that the former also commit less violent crime per capita, even with more guns.
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configspace
Posts: 3717 |
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From the article:
They'll need to survey those particular companies. And I'd bet over the next year you'll see "outsourcing" tasks to neighboring cities as has been discussed and/or cutbacks:
The disruption is a gradual but sure shift in burdern either onto the consumer and/or removing benefits.
What happened to the candle makers and workers when (initially gas) electric lights came? What happened to the buggy whip makers and workers when the automobile came? What happened to the auto line assembler when they were replaced with robots?
Those articles don't even tackle the actual economic logic of what happens when you make it illegal to hire someone at a certain rate. They instead focus on older adults working in fast-food, when in fact, it should be about 16-year olds first jobs to work in fast-food. But the min wage and overhead of child labor laws have mostly eliminated that once commonplace job. We already see that evidence everywhere. What are parents with kids doing working as a cashier at a burger joint? It's not designed to support a family. The more they demand it, the more they'll just be replaced with robots. However, I can understand the situation but all of it is created from government malaise (spread and misunderstood with good intentions) and the inflation pointed out in that article is yet another evidence of that. That's primary driver of exorbitant exec salaries for large publicly traded corporations since Wallstreet is often the first recipients of new money. Japan's situation is the complete opposite with mostly (very) young and single workers doing these entry level and min.wage jobs. See: http://www.forbes.com/sites/carriesheffield/2014/04/29/on-the-historically-racist-motivations-behind-minimum-wage/
And this video from another guy with first hand experience Good Intentions 2of3 Minimum Wage, Licensing, and Labor Laws with Walter Williams edit: Recent news about such laws affecting smaller businesses: California Destroys Winery Over Use of Volunteers
Last edited by configspace on Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Using official figures you are correct. Forty-two hours per week for Americans, forty hours per week for Japanese. However, such data does not take into account the fact that a huge number of Japanese workers are expected to work overtime, often for no pay. In fact, it was calculated that the average employee in Japan worked two hours a day in overtime. When you take this into account and look at the actual hours worked, the Japan easily smashes America. But averages don't tell the whole story. There are very few countries were death by overwork is considered not just a legitimate health issue but also a major societal problem. In Japan it is so common they actually have a name for it: karōshi (which literally means "death from overwork"). We're talking about men (it's almost always men in these cases) who routinely work twelve-hour days six or seven days a week and then, in their thirties, die from heart attacks. And that doesn't take into account all the workers who are so stressed-out because of overwork or losing their jobs they suicide by jumping off cliffs or throwing themselves in front of trains.
Wow. Just wow. Racist, much? It is not a "general fact", so please do not claim that it is. Race has nothing to do with work ethic, which is determined by a nation's culture. |
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Scalfin
Posts: 249 |
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Except for the fact that your "logical conclusion" is neither logical nor the real conclusion. First off, many states and countries have raised their minimum wages over the years, and thus a great deal of data for studies, and your scenario never happens. This makes sense from a logical standpoint, as only an idiot would assume that McDonalds doesn't already charge as much as customers would tolerate, so that there's no way for it to raise prices. With an increased minimum wage, either McDonald's will still be profitable on the leaner profits or it will go out of business and be replaced by a business model that is. Hell, even a shred of thought would show that the inflation scenario wouldn't even be a bad thing, as inflation if currently far below target (bordering on deflation at this point). As for why this is happening, even paying the slightest bit of attention would reveal that the current movement was touched off by McDonalds' workforce shifting to full-time adults trying to make ends meet and several high-profile incidents of McD's franchise owners illegally forcing unpaid overtime and stealing tips. What we are seeing is not the logical conclusion of worker entitlement but corporate, with a southern corporation trying to export the region's culture of assuming that labour isn't something that needs to be paid for. Employees are hostile toward "going above and beyond" because they've learned that it's corporate code for "I want work done without actually paying for it." |
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SouthPacific
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You never go full redneck. |
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GVman
 Posts: 729 |
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I blame that weird diversity professor dude who claims that black folks are genetically predisposed to show up late. I think he worked at some New England university, and I hope he doesn't have a job anymore. Also, I'm actually quite impressed with how the ANN forums has handled this discussion (apart from SynergyMan). It's been a lot more polite than normal. |
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Polycell
 Posts: 4623 |
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For an extra special demonstration, let's take my nominal wage of $11 an hour and compare it to the price of store-brand wheat bread. Not too long ago, it was at $1.18 a loaf, if we pretend I get to keep everything I earn, that works out to about 9 1/3 loaves per hour. Since they've raised it to $1.28, that takes me down to 8 3/5 loaves per hour - a loss of an entire loaf of bread. That is inflation. |
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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Something I just wanted to point out is that I can think of at least two famous chains in the service sector that pay substantially above minimum wage: In-N-Out Burger employees are paid $12 per hour (though in Los Angeles, this may change with mayor Eric Garcetti's proposal to increase minimum wage from $9 to $13.25), and at Costco, even the lowest on the ladder are given $14 per hour and a few shares of Costco's stock. Both businesses are doing more than fine and have weathered the economic recession with flying colors (well, except for the fact that the family that runs In-N-Out Burger is comparable to the Kennedys in suspicious deaths).
On the flip side, a lot of restaurants in east-coast and midwestern can get away with paying their waitstaff significantly below minimum wage, as low as $2 per hour, under the assumption that they can make up that amount in tips. Most of these states require the employer to pay back the amount to the waiter or waitress if the tips earned through the day plus the normal pay winds up less than what he or she would be paid through minimum wage on paper, but the reality is that their jobs are threatened or they're outright fired if they don't compensate with tips themselves because the employers don't want to pay them more. Goodwill Southern California takes advantage of a law that allows them to pay disabled workers less than minimum wage, instead according to their productivity. I'm guessing the idea is that they can live off of disability benefits and that work is something they don't need to do or something, but it sounds blatantly unfair. (I've worked at GSC though, and I can tell you that it's a rampantly corrupt organization.)
I think it's worth mentioning that McDonald's already has a $2 menu. Burger King and Arby's do too. (That being said, McDonald's still has a $1 menu, albeit it's shrinking.)
What if the customer has health concerns over the food and would prefer his or her items not have something he or she is allergic to/sensitive to/morally against/religiously against? I know Japan's not as culturally or idoelogically diverse as the United States, but surely there'd be, say, someone allergic to tomatoes stepped into a hamburger restaurant? Scraping the ketchup off the burger is not going to help. |
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GVman
Posts: 729 |
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On the food thing, I remember reading an account of a guy who was a vegetarian and had to argue with a restaurant owner that bacon was not a vegetable.
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Kadmos1
 Posts: 13552 Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP |
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I could so see this this happening in Yusibu. |
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Dfens
Posts: 459 |
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The thing people need to realize is a minimum wage job is a starting point to get work experience and not meant as a career to hold you over the rest of your life much less raise a family on.
If you were to double their wages to $15 dollars an hour, prices would go up, hours and employees would be cut or they may just go out of business. The main thing is even say you gave them more money are they going to work harder to earn it? Hell no they are lazy/entitled people who are only thinking about more money and screw where it comes from or who it's going to hurt. Think about it their are other jobs that require schooling or real job skills and they make $15 dollars a hour. Sometimes that's the starting wage. And now you have some lazy incompetent fast food worker making the same wage why in the hell would you work harder if McDonald's pays the same wage. At my job I worked myself up learning a job skill and had to work hard to get my current salary, and some moron who can't even get my order right wants close to my salary with no real experience or desired job skills to make them a desired asset it ain't going to happen. When I was a teenager my first job was at McDonld's and I worked as hard as the Japanese do if not harder. I took pride in my work and within a short time I was the highest paid non-manager in the company. They rewarded me for my hard work. Of course I left for a better paying job when I graduated and so forth that's what you do you don't make it a career. As for places like In and Out Burger they pay more for better employee's. Less turn over, they speak perfect English, they work really hard, and they don't screw up. Because if you put in the least amount of effort they will fire you, they ain't paying over minimum wage to be nice to you have to earn it. Last edited by Dfens on Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Man the conservatives have been very effective in getting those talking points about increasing the minimum wage out there. Post after post of people straight-up repeating the standard GOP bullet points.
Some of you sound like you're copypasting Hannity transcripts. |
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