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Touma wrote:

I have just finished episode 11 of Fate/stay night.
I think that the show is still getting better.

My opinions of the characters have not really changed, except that Saber is now almost tied with Rin for my favorite. This is mostly because Rin did not do much in this episode.

Shirou is definitely getting stronger, but I still cannot decide if he is sexist or just stupid.
If somebody calls you and says essentially "I have set a trap for you. Please walk into it without telling the people who might be able to save you" it is OK to tell him that you will be stupid enough to do that. It is not OK to actually do it.
I will admit that Shirou looked impressive and rather heroic. However, if he had just been a bit smarted earlier there would have been no need for heroism. But, I guess that it makes for a more dramatic story this way.

I may have missed, or misunderstood, something. After Saber explained to Shirou all of the stupid things that he had done it seemed to me that he said "OK, I admit that I was wrong, but I will not admit that I was wrong."

Anyhow, I am still definitely enjoying the show enough to keep watching.

Phew. One point to tackle at a time.

First off, I'm glad you're liking it more (even sooner than I expected), but I've gotta warn you without spoiling too much. Remember how I said that each character has one route where they're super important, one where they're moderately important, and one where they get sidelined? Well, this is Rin's route to be sidelined. By comparison, she's a major player in the other two routes.

I have to say that the anime-only details of this version (a mix of Unlimited Blade Works' Caster/Kuzuki conflict, Sakura's role in Heaven's Feel (played confusingly), and Toei Animation Filler Arc level writing) do enhance Rin's part in the story by spoiler[letting her have a one on one fight with Caster even after losing Archer, as well as getting a moment with Sakura (who it's hinted at in UBW and revealed in Heaven's Feel and Fate/Zero is Rin's biological sister)] but I honestly think it could have done so in a better way. Her connection with spoiler[Sakura] isn't even hinted at in any other scenes, so it comes across as weird for anyone who hasn't read the visual novel, and rushed for anyone who has. It was nice to see Assassin get some closure, but it was the exact same closure he gets in Unlimited Blade Works anyway. If you're going to make an anime-exclusive arc, you may as well make it original, right? Not to mention that Caster and Kuzuki's closing moment is weirdly placed considering that, unlike in Unlimited Blade Works where they've been the major antagonists and had plenty of time to reveal their relationship in depth up until this point, they've only been around for three episodes or so. Likewise, Shirou's scene where he spoiler[projects Archer's weapons for the first time] loses a lot of its impact from the original. There, it was to show that he could spoiler[use projection magic, as well as to hint at his connection to Archer.] Here, it's less impressive considering that he already spoiler[PROJECTED EXCALIBUR!]

The worst thing though, I don't mind some characters being sidelined in the Fate arc because they were characters who were, for the most part, thematically irrelevant in this arc. They would become important in later routes, but here? Caster's mere presence feels forced despite the fact that she's a major part of this game. Perhaps it has something to do with her inactivity for the first half of the show (without the excuse that Lancer had), but I liked how in the visual novel, she spoiler[shows up only to be killed by Gilgamesh after showing some level of menace] rather than getting her own weird arc here. While I feel like there was no need to actually flesh out Caster or Kuzuki, or give Assassin closure in a route where they were irrelevant originally, I don't exactly feel like it's a bad thing to give Rin something to do. I just feel they went about it wrong.

If you ask me, a smart thing could have been to have Rin attack Caster and give her a small scuffle before spoiler[Gilgamesh appears] or even better, show Kirei Kotomine actually invading Shirou's house toward the climax to take the Lesser Grail's vessel. This would not only allow us to see a Rin vs Kirei fight rather than only seeing the aftermath, but Kirei is a man who practically raised Rin her whole life. It's been stated that despite Rin being a better mage, Kirei would beat her through experience and simply by knowing her better than most people, opening up psychological weaknesses to exploit. This would be a fun thing to see put into practice. Instead though, we are greeted to a "tell, don't show" scene withspoiler[ a bloody Rin explaining that Kirei took Illya.] What a waste. I think maybe I should've adapted the Fate route. I seem to have better ideas than Deen.

You know, I always found it difficult to justify those "never hit a lady" or "girls shouldn't be on the battlefield" types, even if they say they're being chivalrous. Even the characters I like, like Sanji from One Piece or Chikage Rokujo from Durarara, come across as sexist moreso than admirable when they get mad at a person for attacking a woman who can defend themselves, or refuse to attack a woman in self defense themselves. Particularly frustrating in Kenichi when the title character refuses to fight back against a female fighter because she's a girl. This fighter has a history of being belittled for her gender when a man she beat in a competition brags to his friends behind the scenes that he lost on purpose so as not to look like a jerk. Kenichi says that he won't hit a lady, not because he thinks they're inferior, but because it goes against his principals. Is it stupid or sexist? Both. But mostly sexist in this case. The whole time, I was in the corner of the female fighter in question, telling him to nut up and attack her. It's 2016.

With that being said, Shirou is both, but more stupid. The visual novel more clearly explains that this is a bunch of survivor's guilt from the fire making him not want to let others protect him, but that's stupid in this case. Plus, as someone who believes that an adaptation shouldn't rely on its original work to make sense, I believe that Shirou is totally portrayed as a sexist ass. That's not even getting into his date with Saber later on where he essentially treats King Arthur like a poor, ignorant child who can't see the world past these battles. It all comes across with this strange undertone that, if they were genderbent, the situation would be totally different.

Chiibi wrote:

Lol I have a couple figures of Saber just because I love her design....but I plan to tackle the whole FS/N franchise so I can give my proper opinion on all this. Anime hyper

Good luck. I recommend sitting through some Tsukihime first (preferably the visual novel). The anime is pretty mediocre, but if you ask me, it's worth getting the knowledge in from some Tsukihime (it's got a decent manga). Besides, if you watch the bad anime anyway, you have nowhere to go but up. Razz

louis6578 wrote:

Good luck. I recommend sitting through some Tsukihime first (preferably the visual novel). The anime is pretty mediocre, but if you ask me, it's worth getting the knowledge in from some Tsukihime (it's got a decent manga). Besides, if you watch the bad anime anyway, you have nowhere to go but up. Razz

Eh I watched F/SN first and I don't think you need to watch Tsukihime. I don't know what knowledge you would get from it? Been a long time since I've seen Tsukihime so I don't remember. I've been thinking of maybe reading the manga, but I'm still reading another one that I'll probably finish up really soon. After that I still got the new GoT season to go through. I'm also following a whopping, absolutely mindblowing 8 shows this season so I don't know what I plan to do. Maybe I'll be struck by some random massive urge to read Tsukihime manga.

Chiibi wrote:

Lol I have a couple figures of Saber just because I love her design....but I plan to tackle the whole FS/N franchise so I can give my proper opinion on all this. Anime hyper

I think you should find Saber to be to your liking. She's my favourite with Rin being second. Never played the VN (and I don't plan to) so I'm kind of neutral on Sakura, but even when the Heaven's Feel movies come out, I don't think she stands even the slightest chance of taking the number 1 spot from Saber. Eh, I don't think she stands a chance against Rin either because I really like her too. I think F/SN is a pretty good anime. If you like shonen action with romance, then you can't go wrong with F/SN. The 2006 anime is a good starting point.

louis6578 wrote:

You know, I always found it difficult to justify those "never hit a lady" or "girls shouldn't be on the battlefield" types, even if they say they're being chivalrous. Even the characters I like, like Sanji from One Piece or Chikage Rokujo from Durarara, come across as sexist moreso than admirable when they get mad at a person for attacking a woman who can defend themselves, or refuse to attack a woman in self defense themselves. Particularly frustrating in Kenichi when the title character refuses to fight back against a female fighter because she's a girl. This fighter has a history of being belittled for her gender when a man she beat in a competition brags to his friends behind the scenes that he lost on purpose so as not to look like a jerk. Kenichi says that he won't hit a lady, not because he thinks they're inferior, but because it goes against his principals. Is it stupid or sexist? Both. But mostly sexist in this case. The whole time, I was in the corner of the female fighter in question, telling him to nut up and attack her. It's 2016.

Both. Especially in Kenichi's case. In these kinds of situations its somehow supposed to send the message to the audience that the character is a "good guy". Well, there's plenty of other opportunities and different ways to do that. Kenichi's story in part is supposed to be a comedy, but it often likes to talk about the harshness of training and the hard work to improve yourself. When Kenichi's pulls that attitude its like denying the hard training women did to become martial artists. It's incredibly disrespectful to female martial artists. He even has a martial arts teacher who is a female, and love interest Miu can kick his butt, which makes it all seem amazingly contradictory. Its also dangerously stupid, because you could get seriously hurt by not fighting back. I've always enjoyed Kenichi, but when that stuff happens I have to try hard to ignore it.

@louis6578
Thank you for all of the information on the Fate universe.
I think that you are getting into it more deeply than is necessary for this thread, but I really do appreciate the effort.

Cam0 wrote:

louis6578 wrote:

Good luck. I recommend sitting through some Tsukihime first (preferably the visual novel). The anime is pretty mediocre, but if you ask me, it's worth getting the knowledge in from some Tsukihime (it's got a decent manga). Besides, if you watch the bad anime anyway, you have nowhere to go but up. Razz

Eh I watched F/SN first and I don't think you need to watch Tsukihime. I don't know what knowledge you would get from it?

Well, no. You don't NEED to. I just find it to be a great introduction to the Nasuverse. It explains a lot about the mage world's function, as well as how the Holy Church works.

One-Eye wrote:

Both. Especially in Kenichi's case. In these kinds of situations its somehow supposed to send the message to the audience that the character is a "good guy". Well, there's plenty of other opportunities and different ways to do that. Kenichi's story in part is supposed to be a comedy, but it often likes to talk about the harshness of training and the hard work to improve yourself. When Kenichi's pulls that attitude its like denying the hard training women did to become martial artists. It's incredibly disrespectful to female martial artists. He even has a martial arts teacher who is a female, and love interest Miu can kick his butt, which makes it all seem amazingly contradictory. Its also dangerously stupid, because you could get seriously hurt by not fighting back. I've always enjoyed Kenichi, but when that stuff happens I have to try hard to ignore it.

I couldn't agree more. And when he says "I'm not sexist, it's just my principles." Ugh. Dude, stop talking out of your butt. Principle? Principle is when you won't give someone two cents because they're threatening you and you won't give in to threats even though it's just two cents! "I won't hit someone who was born the opposite gender" doesn't make sense unless you ARE sexist (or at least raised to think a certain way about girls. Personally, I have a mom who believes I shouldn't even hit girls in self-defense, which I find ludicrous, but more subservient kids might buy into it).

Touma wrote:

@louis6578
Thank you for all of the information on the Fate universe.
I think that you are getting into it more deeply than is necessary for this thread, but I really do appreciate the effort.

Eh. I get a little passionate when I think something with potential wasted that potential.

I just finished episode 12 of Fate/stay night and it is still getting better.
There was a pretty good fight, but I cannot say anything interesting about it without unnecessary spoilers. At least I did find out what Rider rides. I had been wondering about that.

Shirou did a good job of explaining his motivations and the reason for some of his attitudes to Saber, and to the audience. That improved my opinion of him a little bit, but only a little bit because he followed it by doing something stupid again.
I found it somewhat amusing, in a dark ironic way, that Saber was thinking "Since Shirou is not here I can finally fight freely without having to protect him" and then . . . [guess what?]

Saber has finally pulled a bit ahead of Rin as my favorite character. This is mostly because Rin was handicapped, once again, by not really having anything to do in this episode.
I guess that this really is Saber's show.

^

Glad to hear you're liking it more! The elimination of the first servant is a great turning point from boring monotony to entertainment in this series if you ask me. And while you probably won't be given many reasons to favor Rin over Saber right now, there's always next show. I think you'll enjoy UBW much more, since that's essentially Rin's show (heck, she's even treated as the protagonist more than Shirou at first).

Episode 13 of Fate/stay night is keeping it good.
This episode seems to be a bridge between the last fight and the next fight, which looks like it might start in the next episode and could be bigger than the last.

There is some interesting information here, mostly about Saber.
I am not sure that Shirou understands that he is responsible for Saber's condition, but I do agree with his decision to not have her attack people.

When I watched episode 10 I said that Shirou should have told Rin and Saber that Illya talked to him. Now he is finding out why he should have mentioned that.

I am looking forward to the next episode.

In addition to this show I am falling back on some harem comedy to keep me entertained.
I am going through Heaven's Lost Property: Forte one more time. Astrea keeps getting better.

Finished Tenchi Forever/Tenchi in Love 2. I think it's the best thing in the Tenchi Muyo franchise BY FAR. The best of the Ryo-Ohki continuity doesn't come close to this. Sadly, from what I understand, it's also the final thing that fans can all agree on being worth watching. And sadly, this may be the final time I hear Ryoko's English Dub voice before Mona Marshal ruins it.

Last edited by Touma on Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fate/stay night episode 14.
This is the first time that I have watched two episodes of this in one day, but I thought there would be an interesting fight and I wanted to get to it.

I was right about the fight, it was definitely interesting, but one of the fighters was not who I had expected.
What happened in the fight seemed like a deus ex machina, but it might not seem that way to somebody who is familiar with the game.

This makes some major changes to the character dynamics. I am anxious to see how things play out.

The preview for the next episode shows Rin throwing Saber onto a bed and jumping on top of her. That is something to look forward to Very Happy

And the next day:
Fate/stay night episode 15 has been watched.
I am still enjoying the show and it is getting even more interesting, but I really cannot say much without spoilers.

Rin was a bit more active in this episode. As a result she has drawn back even with Saber as my favorite character.
I like her method of transferring magic power, but Rin should have taken a much more active and personal role in giving it to Saber, so to speak.

I'd like to point out that Tenchi Muyo Forever/Tenchi in Love 2 basically fixes all my complaints about the previous two films. Zero plot holes, no red herrings, a sympathetic antagonist with interesting characteristics, backstory, and personality traits. Great pacing, more focus on the girls than Tenchi (specifically Ryoko), and best of all, exploring the girls' relationships with Tenchi! This is definitely the greatest movie in the franchise and I can easily recommend it to people who aren't THAT into Tenchi. It terms of quality compared to the franchise as a whole, this is Tenchi's equivalent to The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya. Heck, it might even be a little better than that movie in some ways (just not in direction or scale of scenes, but in the actual character moments). Easily gets an Excellent rating from me.

Episode 16 of Fate/stay night is keeping it good and brought a satisfying conclusion to the immediate problem.

All of the main characters looked impressive, including Shirou. He still insists on getting too involved in the fighting, but he does seem to be getting better.

The nicest thing that I can say about Illya is that she is a little brat, and that is being too kind to her.

It looks to me like the animators decided to increase Rin's zettai ryouiki a bit.
I approve, but that is not the reason why she has again pulled ahead of Saber as my favorite character, well, not the only reason.

^

Illya does get better in future routes. I think she's one of my favorite characters in the franchise, though to be fair, that might be because of my Onii-san feelings taking over.

I agree with everything you said. I'd say the Berserker fight is where Shirou and Saber's dynamic starts actually working for me. I also have to say that it's admirable for Rin to continue staying in the fight after spoiler[losing her servant]. It shows that these people mean something to her.

Well, I guess it's time to put up my progress.

Sword Art Online: I'm just two episodes away from finishing Aincrad. See my thread for more in-depth details on my journey into it, but to sum it up? I like parts of it, but the overall product isn't well-written. Is it the worst thing ever? Of course not. At least the people behind this tried, and I can appreciate a good effort.

Monster: I think I'm still in the early 20s. I haven't had time to watch much of it due to my recap of the above show, but this anime is one of my favorites. I stopped at the Eva and Roberto episode, which was really good. I need more time to watch it! Smile

One Punch Man: Yep, I watched the first episode. It was...great! The animation is beautiful to look at (highlights include the aftermath of the fight with the crab monster and the spoiler[dream sequence].) Max Mittelman is perfectly cast, going for a sort of Steven Blum type of performance. Also, the opening theme song is the best. I'm going to be following this show as it airs on Toonami.

I'm going to try to get started on Ouran after I finish SAO's Aincrad arc, but I probably won't be able to do much. I'm moving in a little over two weeks, and I'm going to be busy with that. So, I'll see you guys later. Take care. (^-^)

Am in striking distance of finishing Akame ga KILL! At this time I dunno what I'm going to rate it at.

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