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TRNielson
Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Posts: 182
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 5:27 am
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louis6578 wrote: | Hehe.... Yeah. Clannad. Just hold your nose through the first season and enjoy the bliss of After Story. Also, watch it with your heart, not your brain. If you think about the show too hard, you'll realize how manipulative it is. Though, that applies to most sad/emotional shows. |
Is the difference in quality between Clannad and After Story really that huge? I know After Story is the one that really ranks high, but I know I can't just watch it without watching Clannad.
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louis6578
Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 5:44 am
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TRNielson wrote: |
louis6578 wrote: | Hehe.... Yeah. Clannad. Just hold your nose through the first season and enjoy the bliss of After Story. Also, watch it with your heart, not your brain. If you think about the show too hard, you'll realize how manipulative it is. Though, that applies to most sad/emotional shows. |
Is the difference in quality between Clannad and After Story really that huge? I know After Story is the one that really ranks high, but I know I can't just watch it without watching Clannad. |
Oh lord yes. If you end up getting bored with Clannad, you can honestly just skip to After Story and it'll be like watching Dragonball Z without watching Dragonball. There's enough context for you to get what's going on. Episodes 4 through 18 are just harem arcs of girls who you know Tomoya won't pick in the end.
I'll stop before I ruin Clannad for you, but I'll say this. Season One of Clannad is mediocre, and only worth watching because it leads up to After Story.
PS: Watch the show subbed. The dub is perhaps one of Sentai Filmworks' worst. Literal translations, dull performances, use of "Chan" and "Kun" in the actual dubbing, etc. Just save yourself the trouble. I distinctly remember a painful line where Tomoya's father is being asked whether or not he'd like to pay for Tomoya's tuition or something (I don't remember the specifics, but basically, he says that Tomoya can make his own decisions). The conversation goes something like this.
Person: Don't you think you should just do this for your son?
Tomoya's dad: Tomoya is Tomoya.
We know that in the Japanese, X is X is a common saying that they use, but literally saying that in English is awkward and strange. But that's only one of the dub's problems. They can't even pronounce the lead female's name right. Nagisa is not pronounced "Neg-ee-sah." In a show that's practically worthless if you don't buy into the emotions of the characters, this is an unforgivable dub.
I'd also personally recommend seeing Clannad before Steins;Gate, only because Steins;Gate is the better show in almost every way. You want to see shows in ascending levels of quality rather than descending.
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dtm42
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 6:03 am
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TRNielson wrote: | Is the difference in quality between Clannad and After Story really that huge? I know After Story is the one that really ranks high, but I know I can't just watch it without watching Clannad. |
There's a huge difference between the two. Clannad is actually good, whereas After Story is awful.
The reason why After Story rates higher is because it's the second season. If that seems weird to you, well there's a perfectly normal and very common explanation. Most people who didn't like Clannad would not have watched After Story, and even those who thought Clannad was alright might not have bothered with After Story. So a higher percentage of those who watched After Story are already diehard fans of the franchise. Fans rate higher than casual watchers, so if they make up a bigger percentage of viewership then the average score will go up. Therefore second seasons are - ceteris paribus - going to be higher-rated than first seasons.
If you don't believe me, just poke around the encyclopedia. There are numerous examples of this phenomenon. A classic example is the Aria franchise, in which the first season is #428, the second season is #258, and the third season is #87. The total viewership numbers also dropped off season-to-season, meaning only the big fans were still watching by season three.
louis6578 wrote: | Season One of Clannad is mediocre, and only worth watching because it leads up to After Story. |
*sighs*
TRNielson, don't listen to this guy. He doesn't know what he's talking about.
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Errinundra
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 6516
Location: Melbourne, Oz
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 6:35 am
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Overall I think Clannad is slightly better. All the arcs are moderately entertaining, whereas After Story is terribly uneven. The first 9 episodes of After Story are a chore - if you haven't watched the first season you'll struggle to follow who's who and what's going on. From episode 10 it steadily picks up while episodes 16 to 19 are simply amazing. Those episodes give the sequel its enduring reputation.
From then on it's one almighty cop-out. Everything that Tomoya and Ushio earned up to episode 19 is trampled underfoot. Still, episodes 16 to 19 make the series what it is.
dtm42 wrote: | ...A classic example is the Aria franchise, in which the first season is #428, the second season is #258, and the third season is #87. The total viewership numbers also dropped off season-to-season, meaning only the big fans were still watching by season three... |
You really ought to talk about a franchise where you've seen all the seasons. The last season of Aria is the best. Most fans will tell you that. Reviews also.
Here's an interesting little stat from ANN:
Aria the Animation masterpiece ratings = 208
Aria the Natural masterpiece ratings = 188
Aria the Origination masterpiece ratings = 265
The fans may have dropped off but the fans who thought the last season was a masterpiece grew.
Perhaps you should use Gode Geass as your example?
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louis6578
Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 7:05 am
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^
Don't spoil, but I agree. In the end, there's no real moral to Clannad After Story, it's just a bunch of tragedy porn so that the writers can undo all the deaths and give you the ultimate forced happy ending.
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dtm42
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 7:17 am
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I think it is wrong to label an entire two-cour season as great just based on four mid-season episodes, especially when so much of the rest of the season was terrible. Even more especially when the four episodes in question were pretty bad themselves for a number of reasons too spoileriffic to mention here.
Anyway, Aria actually proves my point quite well; as a general rule, only those people who enjoyed seasons one and two would have watched season three. Those that didn't enjoy them would probably have switched off. I'm a good case study. I dropped the franchise halfway through the second season which means I never watched the third season. If I had seen season three I almost certainly would have rated it lower than a typical fan would have, thereby dragging down the average.
I do find it interesting that the number of masterpiece ratings dipped between seasons one and two but remember, the key is not what goes on at the top but what goes on at the bottom. Did the franchise get better? Well not between seasons one and two, and the masterpiece ratings reflect that, but season two was still rated significantly higher because of all the people who never watched it. Thereby proving my point.
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louis6578
Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 7:26 am
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I'm not going to argue over totally subjective stuff. Instead, I'll just say that I finished The Garden of Sinners/Recalled Out Summer. It was the most boring, unwatchable thing I've seen out of the Nasuverse. I'd dare say it even competes with the Tsukihime anime (gasp). I liked the plot okay, but even then, I had to pause and take breaks in between watching because it was so slow and tedious. Once Shiki defeats the Bomber, there's still 30 or so minutes left. That's 30+ minutes of padding that really had no place there. I love Garden of Sinners. I hate this unnecessary epilogue.
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Mr. Oshawott
Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 6773
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:36 pm
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Today I finished watching Shuffle. The show was bright and humorous on the first few episodes but got darker at certain points, like during the time that Primula became ill and had to return to her world to recover. The last six episodes were an emotional roller-coaster ride, particularly with one of the episodes in which Kaede reveals her yandere characteristic. Fortunately, the ending of Shuffle was a warm and happy one.
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Chiibi
Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 4828
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:40 pm
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louis6578 wrote: | If you think about the show too hard, you'll realize how manipulative it is. Though, that applies to most sad/emotional shows. |
I just don't find emotional anime "manipulative" like how many accuse them of being. To be honest, I don't like that term at all. Isn't it possible that their creators are merely telling a story they want to tell?
When I think of such a term, it feels that it should more like "WE'RE GOING TO MAKE THIS AS SAD AS POSSIBLE. HERE'S A RANDOM FLASHBACK TO MAKE YOU SADDER. HERE BE SAD THINGS THAT HAPPEN FOR NO REASON". That is what I'd label as "manipulative". I found movies like Marley and Me and Patch Adams to be VERY manipulative, schmaltzy, contrived and melodramatic.
But I don't feel like that about emotional anime like Key series and P.A. Works. Their way of story-telling feels more "sincere".....or something....it's hard for me to explain.
tl;dr: I hate when emotional tear-jerking anime are labeled "manipulative". I think they're far deeper than that.
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louis6578
Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:53 pm
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^
We have two separate opinions, but I'll say this. Many emotional films are guilty of being manipulative. The best ones don't make you aware that they're manipulating you. I'd say Clannad is too obvious, but Air tells a genuine mother-daughter story near the last third of it that felt truer than Tomoya living in a world full of sub-humans with one personality trait who lived to justify his ever action.
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dtm42
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 1:33 pm
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Chiibi wrote: | When I think of such a term, it feels that it should more like "WE'RE GOING TO MAKE THIS AS SAD AS POSSIBLE. HERE'S A RANDOM FLASHBACK TO MAKE YOU SADDER. HERE BE SAD THINGS THAT HAPPEN FOR NO REASON". That is what I'd label as "manipulative".
But I don't feel like that about emotional anime like Key series and P.A. Works. Their way of story-telling feels more "sincere".....or something....it's hard for me to explain. |
I'm intrigued. How is that you can correctly identify the key traits of manipulative shows, but then not be able to recognise how nakedly manipulative After Story and its ilk are?
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louis6578
Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 2:10 pm
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I'll level with you, Dtm42. Chiibi's definition is far too general for me to agree with him. It's almost like he wants to hate Clannad.
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Cam0
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 4884
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 2:12 pm
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Could I ask what you peeps mean by "manipulative". Is it interchangeable with "forced". I sort of get the idea, but then I think that every author that is trying to make the viewer feel emotional is trying to "manipulate" the viewer. It's just a matter of whether it works for you. After Story worked for me, I didn't find it "manipulative".
Last edited by Cam0 on Tue May 19, 2015 2:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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louis6578
Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 2:17 pm
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I can explain what I mean. Sadness for the sake of sadness. Trying to tell an emotional story rather than a good one. I'd say that After Story got a pass up until the tragedy porn that was Ushio. In my opinion, her death was utterly forced and, in the end, her's and Nagisa's deaths only seemed to exist so that the story could remove them through the last second Deus Ex Machina ending. Don't get me wrong, I love Clannad After Story, but these are flaws. Whether or not you can overlook them, and I can, is up to you. Clannad season one is certainly manipulative at many points as well, especially during Kotomi's (universally hated) arc. I don't want to give away anything for the people who haven't seen Clannad, but I think you know what I mean when I use that as an example.
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Night fox
Joined: 01 Oct 2014
Posts: 561
Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 3:29 pm
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@louis6578
You might want to spoiler tag more than single specific words. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the context as it is now (the missing word is obviously "birthday"). Also, in one of your earlier posts you justify giving a spoiler by stating that "everyone" knows who the main character will eventually choose. To be on the safe side, you should probably spoiler tag that sentense as well.
Concerning Clannad's supposedly manipulative storytelling, I'm not bothered by it at all. If anything is manipulative it's characters like Nagisa, and Fuuko, who you just want to pick up and hug the moment you see them. Tragedies happen in real life too, and I think Clannad does a great job in portraying emotions, as well as providing warmth and many funny moments.
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