Forum - View topicThe X Button - All Day Long
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5825 Location: Virginia, United States |
|
|||||||||
|
There are no winners in the GamersGate controversy. Sadly, the zealots on both sides have hijacked any discussion.
Simple truth is that there is room for everyone at the table. There's room for male fan service games, games that both sex's can play, games for general audiences, kid's games, and female fan service games. But it has all boiled down to one group who thinks there shouldn't be any male fan service games, and the other group who thinks there shouldn't be any females involved in the gaming industry. Now there's no room for all of us in the middle to have any discussion, at least not without being labeled as a member of either extreme. All we can do now is to wait for the zealots to be arrested, tire of the struggle, or get shamed for their extremism. That said, the world moves on, reviews will still be made, and I will be playing Civilization: Beyond Earth when it comes out in a week. A game all can play. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Fedora-san
 Posts: 464 |
|
|||||||||
Agreed 100%. Every game has a right to exist, I'm just still disappointed that it's only a problem affecting the western gaming industry while other media such a books and movies are allowed to do as they please and any scrutiny they get is ignored. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
eragon2890
Posts: 159 |
|
|||||||||
Agreed completely! |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Guile
Posts: 595 |
|
|||||||||
This needs repeating, I feel. Transparency is good. Anthony Burch said something similar during the whole affair, how nobody cared that he used his connections to get Borderlands 2 good reviews from sites. Though after he confirmed it, people did get upset over it. It was a mistake on his part because nobody knew about this until he admitted to it. If nothing else, this whole thing has just confirmed there is indeed a problem in the industry and bringing these controversies to the forefront. The more these people spill the beans and pull the curtain back on the industry the better, I say. I think of this as a wake-up call for the industry. On the subject of the Tomb Raider reboot since it was mentioned, that game has always confused me. The old Lara Croft was a strong, capable woman, she was very intelligent, she could take down armies of zombies, dinosaurs, and even ancient demons and gods trying to take over the world, all while leading her own mini-team of associates, and was overall a strong character. Yet the new Lara croft is cited as an improvement by certain people. When I played the new game I saw a girl who was crying all the time, very weak and constantly beat up and humiliate. I suppose I just do not get what some people want out of a protagonist. I hope the entire praise of her character isn't boiling down to how she has no unlockable bikini costume, as if it's the most important thing about a character. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||||||||
Nope. It depends on what "change" you're talking about. Conservativism is by the most basic definition the view that things either are now or were at some point in the past ideal and we should either keep to or return to that status quo. Your example doesn't apply here. Or to use a more pronounced example: "Hey, we should go back to not letting women vote" is obviously not a progressive position even though it favors "change". For while it may radically challenge the way things are now, it only does so insofar as championing a return to a past status quo that prevailed through much of history.
Hey, if this is your position, fair enough. At least now you're being honest with yourself and not pretending to be anything but what you are. If you're actually convinced that gaming and society at large have reached a point of healthy equilibrium and any further progress is going to far...well okay. Be a conservative I guess. Of course, as you demonstrate here, this view is just based on the same fear mongering fantasy scenario conservatives always use to justify their prejudice. "I'm just afraid of the PC police coming to take my bible away and send me to gay-prison" It's delusional bullshit. In fact, it's the opposite of reality. People are not free to make whatever game they want without fear. People like you are. People like Zoe Quinn or basically anyone else who goes against the status quo in gaming by virtue of who they are or what they make doesn't have that luxury. In fact, Gamergate has proved quite effectively, these people are as far from being able to act "without fear" as can be. This is where, in keeping with my original point, there's nothing "liberal" about your stance to me. You favor progress only when progress favors you. When it comes to progress for the sake of others, you champion maintaining or returning to a status quo wherein you have the power.
Yeah, see this is why your view is nonsense. Several women have been doxxed multiple times, had their friends and families harassed, and ultimately been driven out of their homes by very credible threats. Countless more have received hundreds if not thousands of misogynist comments and harassment. But guys! This one guy who was in support of feminism this one time was totally dishonest you guys! Sorry. Better shut it down. No more progressiveness. It's been corrupted. Gamergate's still fine though obviously. Obviously those people are just exceptions. They don't represent what it's really about. When you apply such a ridiculous double standard it belies your true motives. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Fedora-san
Posts: 464 |
|
|||||||||
I don't even know what you're trying to say anymore at this point. Can you just talk about the issue without even bringing up political parties? I'm not even religious, I'm agnostic.
Zoe Quinn has made multiple games and I have made zero. By that definition I would say she is more free to make whatever games she wants more than I am. What is the status quo of gaming, for the record? And what games are being prevented from being made out of fear? As far as I know no one can actually stop someone from making a game. There have been games made about pretty much everything, including but not limited to coloring a dinosaur to an RPG set during the Columbine school shooting, so I'm unsure what this status quo that needs to be shattered is. The whole stink about Zoe wasn't about the game she made, it was about the allegations of her having sex for publicity. But with the indie game scene, pretty much anything can be made. Whether it succeeds or not is something else entirely.
The paragraph you quoted had nothing to do with attacking people or threats , now you're just changing the subject and trying to take statements out of context. That example was used as a counter point to you accusing people of labeling themselves something to obtain more credibility or come off more sympathetic. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
|
|||||||||
|
Something I find a bit amusing in light of GamerGate happening is that there is currently an effort to try to bring women into video gaming's older brother, pinball. The Professional and Amateur Pinball Association is proposing a women-only division for their 2015 World Championships and is letting the players decide. Reactions are...mixed, to say the least.
It's interesting that there is a vocal minority attempting to shove women out of video gaming, while at the same time, another vocal minority is trying to funnel women into pinballing.
That's because they're older media, so the modern youth don't pay quite as much attention to it. That being said, a similar outcry did happen with film regarding its violence and sexual content that resulted in the MPAA. With literature, we've had stuff from accusations of books promoting promiscuity in the 19th century to Seduction of the Innocent--prior to the latter, comic books were incredibly misogynistic, some publishers selling based on their shock value. Video games, being a newer creative medium compared to most others, would have it happen to them later but eventually. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||||||||
Nope. If you're gonna support Gamergate I'm gonna call you want you are: An angry, reactionary, conservative lashing out against social progress and clinging to the status quo where you hold the power. (And religion is not the defining factor of conservativism FYI.) Don't like it? Too bad. You don't get to systematically set yourself against the cause of social equality and progress still play at not being a conservative.
What kind of idiot moon logic is this? Of course you specifically haven't made any games. Are you a developer? Have you ever tried to make a game? I'm gonna guess no. The question at hand is whether you're free to do so if you decided to. And you absolutely are. On the other hand, thanks to her involvement in the gaming industry, Zoe Quinn has been harassed and doxxed and threatened to the point of having to flee her home for her own safety. Would you call that "free" in any meaningful sense?
What? Dude, this is YOUR point from a minute ago. You said: "I support gay marriage in the real world and voted for it, but I do not support the public shaming and attempted career assassination of companies who don't effortlessly put gay marriage in their games no matter if it fits or not like websites did for Nintendo when they saw Tomodachi Life dared to focus on the aspect of having children as a gameplay mechanic, which would be impossible with gay marriage. When that storm dropped, suddenly Nintendo was worse than Westboro Baptist Church in the eyes of gaming media. Luckily, Nintendo is so massive they can write it off with a stock PR response and just drop a new Pokemon game and everyone will move on, but you got some of the smaller developers scared out of their minds that they're put in an assimilate-or-be--destroyed position for their work." This is your objection to supporting social justice causes. We apparently can't do that because social criticism somehow equals developers not being free to make the games they want anymore. And now you're claiming the exact opposite when I point out that women being met with a giant campaign of harassment maybe impedes their ability to work in the game industry and do what they want. 
Again, this is the absurd double standard of Gamergate supporters: -People actively harassing and threatening women involved in gaming? "Well...no one can actually stop someone from making a game." -People offering social critique of gaming? "Oooh! No! Developers will feel pressured to comply and they should be free to do what they want!" |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Shippoyasha
Posts: 459 |
|
|||||||||
|
Speaking of the whole Gate fiasco, the thing is that it's painfully obvious that there's a 3rd party in it just for the giggles to watch the drama get crazier.
Some are speculating it could be Goons (yes, those guys from Something Awful. Like we're back in 2004) and there's been all sorts of nasty marketers and exploitative controversy spinners trying to get in and they've been caught time and time again by the Gate community. Also, I don't think anyone in Gate community ever said abuse and harassment was kosher. The extremes who are against that community equates ANY critique to modern social justice as 'abuse' so it really makes the issue confusing. There's a lot of combativeness and it's often coming from the 'anti-GG' side because they are using a lot of the divisiveness to sully the other side. There's some of that cattiness from both sides, but I don't think the GG guys are in it to suppress or threaten anyone. All I've been reading are just simple disagreements. Oh well. Back to games. And I'm pleasantly surprised by just how good Shinovi Versus is. Yes it is a fanservice extravaganza, but it is all very cute (I'd say it's more cute than sexy really) and the action is good old Senran and it definitely is a step above Musou in terms of tactical depth, especially while fighting other shinobi. The music is pretty fantastic overall and the online modes are surprisingly a blast as well. I'm really glad I got the limited edition considering it has a really good and informative strategy guide filled with character art and has a fantastic game music CD. These are some of the best I've seen out of a limited edition in years. I am so happy with my purchase. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Lavnovice9
Posts: 276 |
|
|||||||||
The guy with a mile long post saying someone else is throwing a temper tantrum..
I say that because Japanese devs seem more concerned with making games than making movies, or hamfisted social statements. "Artful expression" is why games are so bad these days. You keep saying I hate everything western, but that's pretty dumb. I didn't just play hours of Town of Salem because I hate it. It's just I have no problem calling out berating companies or practices I hate. In that regard, yeah, most of it is directed at western companies, because that's where most of the problems lie these days I find. I've yet to see a Japanese dev wheel out some new character and brag how they were the first ones to make a gay character and are breaking boundaries and if you don't like it you can go back to the stone-age. They just make a gay character and don't verbally pat themselves on the back.
Any game that gets censored here suffers because of it for one.
Some girls like certain things, and others don't. Not all women act or think the same way. If one woman says moe is sexist and another doesn't, then who's right? Which sides are devs supposed to side with to make eveyrone happy? And dude, you then go on to say to Suzy Bayo isn't sexist because some girls like her.. so yeah. Exactly. It's a no-win situation.
Yeah it's pretty obvious trolls everywhere are having a field day with it and playing both sides for kicks. When you're anonymous you can just play devil's advocate all you want and troll around. You can send all the death threats to people and say you're part of group x even if you're not and nobody can prove you're not. I got death threats here on ANN and I just shrug them off. They always read like some 13 year old trying to sound tough.
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Rahxephon91
 Posts: 1859 Location: Park Forest IL. |
|
|||||||||
Because thats what you do. You're examples are always reviews like the Kotaku on Dragon's Crown and now Polygon Bayonetta 2. You always want to yell "CREATIVE FREEDOM CREATIVE FREEDOM", but none of those websites have done anything. Reviews and editorials from Kotaku aren't forcing these games not to exist. They've had no effect. They are always just criticisms, but you feel the need to quickly discredit them with "OH THEY JUST HAVE AN AGENDA" merely because you don't like what they are saying. It's pathetic. No, I'm not having a temper tanturm. What you're lame attempt at countring misses is I'm not the one that makes countless posts about people not agreeing with me.I'm not the one that feels the need to put everyone who disagrees with me in some neat littler catorgory "Shonen Jump Weekly" just so I can quickly write them off in my own head. No, thats you. That's throwing a temper tantrum. Be honest. You say that Japan is the last bastion of freedom only because you have a Japan bias. Oh it's dumb to claim you do. How about you read your post history. You have never made a post where you either don't have an unsubtle negative thing to tell us about the west or claim how much better Japan is in regard to the west. Literally, that is all you do on this forum and anyone with one eye can see that. What are these western games you're even talking about? I've seen developers happy and proud that they've been able to make artful games. Calling them ham-fissted is merely a matter of perspective, so that really has no bearing on what you've said. Either way I've seen no western game that actually does what you're talking about. Either way what you said has nothing to do with your original point. In your post you're talking about the pride of western developers. You haven't actually defended how "Japan is the last bastion of creative freedom" which you can't because it's a very dumb point. Also, when IF censors thier loli rape games thats pandering to Shonen Jump Weekly. No that's stupid, that has nothing to do with Shonen Jump Weekly. See what you've done is misdirected your hate. You've seen something happen you don't like, something you associate with this made up group in your head, and then blamed them for it. Companies don't censor games because of some small group on the internet. They censor thier games because of retailers and business partners. This has nothing to do with the enemy you've made. What other games are being censored because of this Shonen Jump Weekly?Can you actually name a specific game that got changed? No, don't link that one about the stupid brestplate. That was a player backed game and in the end didn't change the game. What games are being horribly limited because supposed Shonen Jump Weekly are out there? Bayonetta 2 came out. Many western games don't seem to be changing. And really can you name me any examples beyond things tht deal with sexual elements. It always comes back to that with you people. It never leaves the realm of female characters and I have yet to see how having female characters that aren't so objectified is a problem. Why is it such a problem for you? Who's right about things being sexist. Well I'd at least listen to the one who actually argues about it instead of the one who sits here an whines about how people are critisising things he likes. Which is all you do with this issue. It's never an actual defense about this stuff it's always a "these people keep saying these things! leave them alone". Ok some girls don't care and/or oblivious to problematic elements. So should problematic elements be ignored? According to you yes, because that's all your point argues. "oh see some of these people are ok with it so shut up". You do know people use that defense to defend things like racism right? Chicken is completely right in his/her talk about you people wanting just your status quo and when people attempt to change it you lash out. Thats all your point actually says. Also btw that Bayonetta reply to Suzy J was a joke about how you people post. Clearly that went over your head. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Guile
Posts: 595 |
|
|||||||||
|
I find it a bit offensive ikillchicken is using the word conservative as if it's a bad thing, and being a conservative means your views are wrong or dismissable. I'm not a conservative, but someone's political stance should not be demonized so much.
I would also like to say I find it a bit tasteless you are trying to compare a real plight actors face in the movie industry, to people not liking a video game character showing a bit too much cleavage. That is comparing real people to fictional characters. A writer not finding Bayonetta's outfit acceptible is not the same thing as an actor being denied work because of racism. I would also say how many people complain about Asians not being in starring roles in these adaptions because they want equality for Asian actors in Hollywood and how many complain because they don't like seeing their franchises being changed or disrespected? Not everyone necessarily hates the same thing for the same reasons. I would say a lot of people who dislike those adaptions of anime dislike them on principle of they are being changed. I don't dislike Power Rangers or Dragon Ball Evolution on the grounds it has white people in it, though it's certainly stupid they're not starring Asians, I primarily hate them because they are watered down and ruined adaptions more than anything. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
krelyan
Posts: 173 Location: Utah |
|
|||||||||
This isn't true. Anita never said that letter that was being publicized (mentioning Lepine) was the one that referenced GamerGate. She said she received multiple death threats, one of which that mentioned GamerGate. USU has confirmed receiving multiple death threats including one mentioning GamerGate. And I can't say I'm surprised that GG supporters are up in arms about "but not all supporters are conservatives!" Would the "movement" even have gotten anywhere if they didn't take eye-rolling umbrage to any reference of the word "gamer?" Some reading comprehension and less literalism would stop this whole thing dead in its tracks. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
GateCrusherDX
Posts: 15 |
|
|||||||||
|
@ikillchicken The term "conservative" is meaningless, as the definition of the word spirals from nation to nation. In Sweden, despite there being a "conservative party" it does not mean it is like the American kind of conservative, because Sweden is generally more "progressive" than the US and by extension Japan.
At the very least, the Swedish cons are comparable to the American Democratic party in terms of political ideology. Similarly, although the Republican Party is a "center-right" party, that means nothing to the Norwegian Progress Party, which is a "firmly right wing" party, yet it shares a similar ideology to the "centre-right" Republican Party and is friendly with them, despite the fact that an MP for the Norwegian Conservative Party stated that "When we mean conservative in Norway, it means liberal in the US" because most, if not all sectors of Nordic society are relatively "liberal" compared to the US. But then again, "liberal"=/=progressivism. Progressivism means exactly what the first 8 letters of the word says. To progress. This does not necessarily contradict or clash with conservatism, as ideologies can mix and intertwine and conservative progressivism is a limited form of the ideology. It seems as if in your mind, conservatism=bad, even though conservatism=/=bad. It's how its applied that matters. Liechtenstein and Monaco are "conservative" in the fact that they both have Roman Catholicism as their official religion, both outlaw things that get in the way of said religion and both have older populations, who tend to be more conservative, but these societies don't have rape, murder or violent crime. Same with Singapore, which is not a liberal democracy, just to let you know. It doesn't have the debt of the US or Sweden and it does not suffer from either of their problems, but it does not change the fact of Singapore's higher education attainment rate, the lower crime, the lower murder rates, etc. Another thing is that, conservatism=/=right wing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro#Political_ideology_and_religious_beliefs Last edited by GateCrusherDX on Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Stuart Smith
 Posts: 1298 |
|
|||||||||
When you try to strawman a group of tons of people into one little box for the primary sake of proving your argument right, people will naturally find fault with it. So you are correct in that sense, it's not very surprising at all people would take issue with such a generalization. I'm sure if people in this thread tried to generalize all anti-GG as some form ultra conservatives afraid of the idea of sexual expression in games, people would also try to pipe up and say they have no problem with sexuality in games. In fact, people have already said that to some degree in regards to Bayonetta. It seems only naturally to say that when you see people making unfair generalizations. That's what I find useless about these posts. The term conservative can be applied to both sides of the arguments. Either keeping a supposed status quo in gaming, or being conservative when it comes to the freedom of expression of sexuality. It's why calling someone a conservative in the first place doesn't do much for an argument, and seem to only be made by people with a chip on their shoulders who want to turn it into a political debate. As I said, there's different degrees and branches of these kinds of stances whether it's feminism, humanism, conservatism, or liberal. Very few people are going to support every single issue under the chosen umbrella. Most people are going to have a smorgasbord of views. I hate to be the one to tell you, but if someone gets so offended over seeing skin or sex in video games, they might have a touch of conservatism in them as well, and that's not automatically a bad thing. -Stuart Smith |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group