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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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Regarding where creative games are coming from, I should point out that far and away the most common source of recommended games from Extra Credits, who are in strong support if creative freedom, is the west. Kentucky Route 6 and Counting Kingdom are incredibly western but incredibly creative, for instance.
Japan, on the other hand, is experiencing an implosion in the home console market, and to a lesser extent, the handheld market, due to mobile gaming hitting the business like a hammer. A few large companies, like SEGA, are jumping onboard, but most of the major ones are choosing to fall back and avoid taking unnecessary risks. Even Nintendo, known for taking all sorts of risky moves, has fallen back with direct sequels and reacting to market changes rather than creating them. |
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gloverrandal
Posts: 406 Location: Oita |
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Recently there is a game called Hatred garnering controversy among games journalism sites. The difference this time is it is not sex or the human body that they are complaining about, it is violence. To me this indicates we have come full circle since the days of Jack Thompson. For those that do not know, Jack Thompson was prolific for advocating against violent video games and raising concerns over them. Think Anita Sarkeesian, only for violence instead of sexism. He was made a laughing stock by the gaming community and disbarred from being a lawyer. Now, years later, we see his statements are returning slowly and surely, only this time being held up by sites rather than scorned by them. Perhaps people like Kotaku and Anita have opened the doors for this and have made it acceptable compared to years ago. Times have certainly changed in only 5 years at any rate.
I have seen people complain about person I disagree with politically folks for attacking sites by going after their sponsors and have been called deplorable, tough a common practice in protests. Yet here we have people going after companies like Valve and GOG and demanding they not sell games like Hatred. It seems both groups are not so different after all. If they are successful, we may see the beginning of censorship for video games that people fear where only games a select committee have personally approved of are sold. This is personally why I'm not a fan of digital platforms like Steam or Origin, it gives them too much power.
I've never heard of Kentucky Route 6, but Counting Kingdom looks like a scaled back version of Japan's Puzzle & Dragons, one of the biggest gaming franchises over there. Perhaps this is creative compared to the American gaming scene, where FPS games dominate the market, but games like these are pretty common in Japan. If you look at Japan's top selling list, it's not unusual to find all sorts of games that America don't make, like visual novels and other types of games. The comment on Nintendo seems unfair, though. Splatoon looks like one of the most unique takes on shooters out there, which is amazing considering Nintendo doesn't make shooters usually unless you count the western-produced Metroid Prime series. Captain Toad as well, looks like a nice game coming out. I admit I'm a huge Nintendo fan so I may be bias, but I have always fund Nintendo a breath of fresh air to the gaming scene. |
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leafy sea dragon
Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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I'm a Nintendo fan myself--I'm letting Smash Bros. for 3DS's Spectator Mode running right now, for instance.
I do admire the guts to make games like Splatoon (though I can't say quite as much for risk with Captain Toad's Treasure Trackers as it's based on part of Super Mario 3D World). However, what I mean is that we're now getting games like Super Mario Galaxy 2, and Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze, which don't seem to try to set new standards the way even Nintendo sequels normally would. Even last generation, Nintendo would lead the field with stuff like Wii Sports and Brain Age. Even things that didn't sell too well, like Wii Music, didn't seem to bother Nintendo much. That being said, stuff like Splatoon and Tomodachi Life do show Nintendo has not lost that spirit. The reason I use Counting Kingdom as an example is of the game's use as an educational tool. The gameplay I have no doubt has been done before, but edutainment has always been a medium so devoid of any competent game design that it was a surprise to find someone attempting such a task and actually succeeding (though I don't know much about its sales). I suppose it was my fault though for confusing taking risks with creativity. |
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Rahxephon91
 Posts: 1859 Location: Park Forest IL. |
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Thank you gloverrandal. You have just basically proven everything chicken has been saying.
That is: You people don't want any criticism. You don't want anyone talking about things you like. If people don't agree with you then they are wrong and we need to discredit them. How do I know this? Because you just pulled one of the biggest ass pulls out there. Comparing Anitia to Jack Thompson. What kind of idiotic connection is that? Jack Thompson literally wanted to ban violent video games and put game companies out of business. How can you put Anita on that level(well we know how honestly). You clearly don't know anything and have never watched her videos. Never has she called for a ban on anything. She's never done anything to imply "hey we need to get rid of these video games". Do you know what she does? She makes videos that talk about the presentation of women in games. Thats it. It's really quite harmless what she does which is akin to someone simply discussing women in video games on a forum. How is that at all like Jack Thompson? She is not attacking anyone. This is what you people do. You go and make wild accusations and attempt to make whatever made up enemy into this extreme. Where did Kotaku do anything you accuse it of? It didn't. Oh no, they said a game was sexist. Nowhere have they ever ran articles "saying we need to ban this". They've run articles that basically can be summed up as "hey there's some shitty things in games". Because it's always kotaku brought up and then further it's specifically Dragon Crown. Where a dude only said his opinion about the overly sexualized aspects. If he was wrong or stupid it dosen't matter. Kotaku never said the game shouldn't come out or whatever nonsense. No, one of thier writers just had an opinion on the game. Apparently that's akin to talk of censorship somehow. Moral of the story, never have any dialogue that upsets manchildren and may force them to have reflecting on what characters mean to other audiences that aren't them. Oh no the horror! They are trying to destroy creative freedom! Other media doesn't get this. All bullshit whining you people do. People have the right to criticize elements of games. That dosen't mean they are destroying creative freedom, which of course you cry that only because they are criticizing things you like and you take it personally. It dosen't mean anything other then adding to the dialogue of video games which you people apparently can't stand in a adult matter. And yes other media gets this same type of discussion. Plenty of websites run articles about these issues in music or movies. Why does it seem much bigger in video games? Well ebcause you yourself are following video games closely. I hate to tell you, you're average joe doesn't care about Kotaku or some youtube gamer celeberity. You're already in the small pond of enthusiast press. Which 2nd is probably more closer to he makers then any other medium. This isn't a conspiracy or anything, but it's just a fact that game developers are more in tune and interacting with fans then movies and music, because they are fans themselves. So issues in the small core video game community of course come up in the enthusiast press and the actual creators. And I see that game Hatred got exactly the kind of audience it was looking for, i.e the wanabe victim of the male gamer who wants to claim he is being disenfranchised because "oh no he's not the sole audience anymore". Why you are choosing this game to champion I have no idea. Literally no articles from kotaku, US Gamer, Euro gamer, ign, frobes, and so on has asked for the banning of the game or any Jack Thompson crap you want to baseless accuse them of. Pretty much every article have raid has just been a discussion on the merrit of the game and what it's violence implies. The same ones that came out during a GTA game. Are people not allowed to talk about these things? Apparently, that's what you actually want. You don't want people at all talking negatively about video games because then they are apparently like Jack Thompson. You complain about steam, but um Sony and Microsoft are far more controlling about what appears on thier systems. It's doubtful this game has a chance of appearing on thier networks. That has nothing to do with supposed people who care about social justice either. TAlso hilarious because Hatred does look like it is too much and comes from a dark place in it self. But I guess by saying that I find a game that totally relishes in being a murder simulator that may be made by neo Nazis disgusting means I'm like Jack Thompson. Then throw in the usual "Japan is so much better" unsubtle posts and we're done. Way to win. Yes Counting Kingdom which looks nothing like and plays nothing like P&D is just like P&D. I guess western developers just aren't able to make anything right? If I look at the western top sales charts I see all kinds of games that Japan dosen't make either. Also yes those visual novels(that hardly top Japanese sales btw) are so original. But yeah the American market is just FPS. Never mind that the best selling games of 2013 where Grand Theft Auto, Assassins Creed, Minecraft, Just Dance, Pokemon, Fifa, Skylanders, and so on. But since there western I'm sure you'll dump games that don't even play or act the same into the shooter category that you all so like to do. While ignoring that the Japanese charts can be fit into the same familiar genres and ips as well, but of course Japan is so creative while the eat up the same Monster Hunter clone that dosen't change or a DQ game. The bias here is amazing. Last edited by Rahxephon91 on Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Of course that ignores the fact that some generalizations are more valid than others. Obviously not literally every person I disagree with politically is [insert generalization here]. Although really, that's bordering on a strawman argument given that very few people, if any, have actually made such a definitively universal claim. What people have pointed out is that gamergate is a movement made up predominately of angry, 20-something straight men raging against what they perceive to be the foreign influence (it isn't) of "social justice warriors" (read: anyone who supports any sort of progressive cause that benefits women, minorities, etc) and aggressively trying to force that influence out of gaming. You can play the #NotAllGamerGaters card but that doesn't actually contradict the above. Overwhelmingly, that is what the movement is and what it is about. Conversely, the suggestion those critical of female/minority representation in games are, even generally, ultra conservatives afraid of the idea of sexual expression is simply without merit. That's not the case in any significant capacity and it has never been the case. The vast and overwhelming majority of people critical of female representation are NOT opposed to sexuality. Such a perception only still exists as part of a dishonest and self-serving fiction created by people like yourself in support of your feigned position that you're somehow "pro-sex". But you're not. Not when it doesn't suit you anyway. This is kinda my point from before. You guys are "progressive" but only to the extent that progress benefits you as a straight male. Consequently, you're only "pro-sex" when sex is something you control. When female sexuality is presented absent of female agency and power, existing for you, for your enjoyment, then you're in favor. But as soon as anyone suggests the portrayal of female sexuality be improved and presented in a healthier way that benefits women, oh boy. Then comes the disingenuous hysterics about how they're "anti-sex" and want to censor all sexuality. It's dishonest, self-serving perpetuation of a status quo where you hold the power and nothing more.
You do realize that Hatred is a game explicitly about committing genocidal mass shooting sprees created by literal neo-nazis right? This is the hill you're choosing to make your stand on. Ah, but I digress. Let's talk some more about how stupid I am for calling people I disagree with politically conservative extremists!
"Video games [cause] real world violent [behavior] so I'm going to [actively campaign to legally censor their very existence]" - Jack Thompson "Video games often [demonstrate] sexist [attitudes] so I'm going to [talk about this on the internet]" - Anita Sarkeesian "I literally cannot see any difference between these two points of view!" - Gamergate |
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gloverrandal
Posts: 406 Location: Oita |
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The game is little different than Grand Theft Auto in that regard, if you are going to criticize it for letting you go around murdering innocent civilians. If anything, it's more honest about the appeal of the game without the giant marketing push behind it to paint it as a positive thing like Grand Theft Auto does. Content matter does not matter, though. Hatred has every right to exist as movies like Saw, Cannibal Holocaust, A Siberian Film, The Human Centipede, and any other ultra violent gore movie.
Your generalizations seem immensely simplified and twisted, ikillchicken. In one of her videos she says "Long term exposure to hypersexualized images, people of all genders tend to be more tolerant of the sexual harassment of women, and more readily accepting of rape myths like the belief that sexual assaulted women were asking for it... in other words playing video games profoundly impact how real world women are treated" That sounds similar to what Mr. Thompson was saying less than a decade ago if Anita is stating that objectification in gaming is causing influences of sexism, sexual harassment, and even rape in the real world. |
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14761 |
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Ah, ya missed the point. I'm not comparing those - I'm comparing the people. Focus on the people; it's the same people. The themes could be changed, but the focus doesn't. Don't change the focus to the themes; keep the focus on the people. Again, point is anyone can be Shonen Jump Weekly when it's their social issue, even those who stand for creative freedom.
And it's not about that neither. If Asian actors got on film portrayed as bucktooth chink-eyed smiling submissives, is that any better if women got on games portrayed as unwilling pin-ups yet to be taken advantage of? It's how they are portrayed on the media, including absence is a portrayal. Even females or Asian-Americans could rather choose the absence of portrayal than how females are portrayed in some video games. If gonna be portrayed as badly, instead not be portrayed at all. Anyhow, back to topic, Western games can be critiqued; Japanese games can be critiqued; anything can be critiqued. Go ahead critique Western games; others go ahead critique Japanese games. Only nonsense is believing something isn't deserving of critique. |
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Rahxephon91
Posts: 1859 Location: Park Forest IL. |
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That dosen't sound anything like what Jack Thompson was saying. jack Thompson was saying that video games alone influenced and taught people how to be murders.
Anita is throwing out the concept that media's negative presentation of women effects how people relate, sympathize, and view women in the world. She's saying since video games are a forum of media, they play the same role as music, movies, and books do. It's the entire point behind her essays. Here's how these negative presentations of women are continuously are propagated with the help of video games among other fourms. Even in her quote she dosen't solely lay the blame on video games. Video games are just one thing that does this. Which is'nt a crazy concept and has actual truth to it. It could also be applied to racial views as well. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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So you're telling me that Hatred is totally okay because it's just a "more honest" GTA which itself really only appeals to people who want to graphically simulate going on a mass shooting spree? Holy shit...and Anita is the one who sounds like Jack Thompson?
Yep. Nobody is disputing that. Nobody is trying to force these people to not make their game. But also, nobody is obligated to help them. Steam doesn't have to let them use their service to distribute it. That's not an unreasonable suggestion.
That is nothing like what Thompson believed. Thompson had this absurd belief that just because a kid played some videogames he was suddenly gonna go out and shoot up a school. Which is ridiculous. Games aren't some magic box that will completely overpower your thinking and make you utterly lose track of reality. There's really no basis to say that games are actually gonna cause you to act violently. On the other hand, literally all Sarkeesian is suggesting is that pervasive, long term exposure to the sexists depictions of women in all media (not just games) can potentially make you more predisposed to accepting sexist attitudes. If you're under the impression that this is somehow unreasonable then I don't know what to tell you. This is a pretty plausible point. Pervasive trends in media do have some influence society's attitudes. That doesn't mean "Games make you a rapist". That's a completely absurd and hyperbolic reading. Plus, even all that aside, you're still ignoring perhaps the most important difference: Once again, Thompson actively campaigned in a court of law to censor and restrict video games. Sarkeesian is making videos on the internet where she points out that these problems exist and suggests that players and/or devs should voluntarily work to rectify them. It's completely night and day. |
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belvadeer
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All I have to say about this X Button is that I find it mildly strange that they're just now releasing Fantasy Life when it was originally released back in December of 2012 in Japan. I know there have been much more unusual cases of late releases in gaming history though (the most hilarious case I've seen was when it took Mickey Mouse: Magic Wands over four years to finally get an overseas release here and in Europe).
Japan: December of 1993 U.S.: May of 1998 Europe: 1998 Based on past Disney game releases, the U.S. usually gets them first before Japan. I suppose it could be credited to the fact Kemco made the game and they're not exactly known for all of their properties getting released internationally. Still, I would have expected Disney to get all uppity about it and demanded the game get a U.S. release first despite its Japanese origin. |
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GateCrusherDX
Posts: 15 |
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@ikillchicken You seem mad. Calm down. Oh and as I said, your lack of knowledge on political ideologies is really, really bad. You called Gamer Gate "right-wing extremists" then you turned around and said "ultra-conservatives" as if right wing and conservative are the same thing. Then again, your inability to distinguish conservatism, ultra-conservatism and far right politics means that your usage of these words mean nothing and that when you use them, they diminish your arguments.
"Conservatism"(which is a really broad ideology) is not this bad thing that you're espousing. Unless you're one of those idiots who cannot distinguish political ideologies, I suggest you shut up. |
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lostrune
 Posts: 313 |
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Does anyone have any actual statistics about GamerGate? Ya always see people say it's a movement primarily about suchandsuch, but how do they know that? Did surveys go out? Do they have statistics of how many people do what and where? Where's the numbers? There's always this huge [citation needed] flag next to those statements like on Wikipedia
I see you are a fan of George Orwell's Animal Farm too 
Well, ya got to remember taking risks is relative to the market. Nintendo's a good example of what I mean. Like it seems weird to criticize them for making lots of different platform games like 3D Land or Donkey Kong where there's no platform games being made by Americans to begin with unless you count indie games, but most of those are heavily influenced and just copy old Japanese NES/SNES games so there's no originality there. As far as normal games are concerned, platforming is pretty much a dead genre in the west. So are a lot of old genres I loved playing as a kid. So while it might be standard for Nintendo to make platformers, it's still more diverse than what we're getting by our own people. So if one country is already more diverse then to take risks they have to exert themselves more than one that isn't as diverse. Remember when Blizzard was known as the king of RTS rather than MMOs and Free to Play card games? I wish they'd go back to that even if it's unoriginal for them to make an RTS. RTS seems kind of dead, along with point-and-click adventure games. Lots of old stuff that were once the standard and unoriginal are now gone. |
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Rahxephon91
Posts: 1859 Location: Park Forest IL. |
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Yes all indie games are unoriginal thanks to some vague metric that is un-measurable behind "I'm lostune and like to put all indie games in one useless put down sentence". Yep, makes sense.Must be nice to just ignorantly throw away games because you ignorantly dislike them and have put them in the meaningless category of "indie" which means nothing beyond how the game was funded. Really makes you look good. Yep, all those indie games are just copies of other games. Lets ignore all the copying that goes on the other side of the pacific.
Also can you for ounce tell me what makes originality a baramater for good? There's nothing original about Bayonetta or most Nintendo's modern games either. So why don't they get knocked down for what is essentially taking an established formula and mixing ip? Not like the core of pretty much all games is something unheard of. I already know the answer(they are Japanese), but I would really like to know for ounce how some things(western) always get knocked down regardless of them being good games or not, because they happen to take influence from other games. Which of course you then like to simplify as "copying" because it makes your shallow argument look stronger. Yet, when it comes to Japanese games, they are bastions of originality even though they themselves are just building on what came before. How are RTS a dead genre when other PC developers like Relic and Creative Assembly have been putting out rts games and Blizzard has activity been developing and supporting Starcraft? Of course I guess ignoring those people allows you to make a case to prove your terrible argument and jerk off your notion of how great Japan is. Why is it that you people chose to ignore developers like Relic, Creative Assembly, telltale, Ubisofts various efforts, double fine, Mojang, Firxais, and the countless other developers who don't make Just fps or sports games like your clearly bias anti-western people constantly like to paint the western market as? We know why, because it destroys your argument. Even here you make a shitty case for yourself. In order to discredit indie games which would completely ruin your case, you simply write them off. "oh those games are just copies". Rogue Legacy is'nt a copy. No mater how much you attempt to argue that, it is'nt. Yet, clearly bias individuals like lostune and lavoicewhatever really try to paint this picture and and in thier attempt look like gigantic ignorant fools. Why can't you simply like your games you do and leave it at that. What is your fascination with having to prove how GREAT AND WONDERFUL your fantastic Nippon is. Every damn past from you people is a gigantic ass pull to show us how much western games are terrible and not like the glorious Japan. Which of course involves the mental exercises of ignoring the faults of Japan, making pathetic excuses for Japan, ignoring other western developers, discrediting games in an attempt to just box them off into one type of game no matter how different they are, writing off a group of games because of were the money came from, accusing one brand of game of something while ignoring that your precious Japanese games are guilty of the same thing and so on. Every video game thread is the same obnoxious and at this point yes Nippon fanboy theoretic from you people. It boarders on parody how shitty and obvious it is, yet none of you are joking. You are so serious in your obvious agendas. You simply can not stop and need to shove your terrible and bias opinions everywhere. You simply can't have preference. You can't simply like these things. No you have to make and push reasons why the things you don't like are so much worse, all with out the tact of self admittance. It would be funny if it weren't so sad. |
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lostrune
Posts: 313 |
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Calm down now, Rahxephon91. No one said anything about games being good, the topic was about originality and then risk taking. Nobody said originality was good, we were just discussing originality being original. I dismissed indie games because being indie games they can not represent any real facet of the industry, which is why they are forced into the indie game scene, we can only look at the main gaming industry for trends in the market of each industry. Japanese indie games, called the doujin game industry, are rarely talked about on Western gaming sites. As far as risk taking goes, most of the indie games funded on Kickstarter are not risks at all since it is not their money they are risking, so it's only a risk to those that invest in them We were mainly discussing the main game industry. I'd say the fact you're so insistent on pushing indie games into the discussion just proves the stagnation of the main industry has become too much that only using indie games can one hope to turn the imbalance around. Though Rogue Legacy has been cited as a Ghost and Goblins/Castlevania mesh so it kinda goes back to what I said in that most of the originality in indie games are really just Japanese ideas from 20 years ago so it's not that original when you look at it from a bigger perspective.
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Alright, well, it's getting close to time to abandon ship here. When you find yourself dealing with the real dregs of the ANN apologist movement it is time to just pack it in. Stuart Smith's feigned intellectual posturing at least bears refutation but the appearance of Lostrune is basically a big smiley beacon that further engagement with a thread is futile. Plus I don't really think there's anything I can say more damning of how far GG's head is up its own ass than DavetheUsher's attempt to equate people campaigning for basic civil rights after the police murder an unarmed man to gamer manbabies harassing women for saying a thing about videogames that they didn't like.
And I see you're not. If you were, you'd actually understand the passage you're obviously referencing: "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others". This of course is an absurdity. Equal is by its most basic definition not more or less. Thus, this statement declares people equal but only in a context that robs the word equal of its very meaning. That...has precisely nothing to do with my statement though. "Some generalizations are more valid than others." There is no contradiction there. The contradiction in the Orwell quote stems from the definition of equality. And equality has nothing to do with my statement. So yeah, I don't know. Maybe try actually reading a bit and understanding the concept you're referencing?
Hmm. Am I mad? Let me think... Gaming, a medium that I love, a medium with truly amazing potential, has become infested with nasty, bigoted man-babies hell bent on keeping the medium as nothing but their own regressive safe-haven. And now those people, if you can call them that, are engaged in a vicious hate campaign designed to terrorize people who've dared to disagree with them and force them into silence. People have been doxxed, harassed, and driven from their homes. They've been threatened with rape, murder and mass shootings. Their families have been harassed. People have been harassed merely because of mistaken identity or proximity. And as all this happens the perpetrators dare to pretend to be concerned about "ethics" despite having done literally nothing to address that issue. So yeah. You know what? I guess I am mad. I am mad and I damn well should be. If all this doesn't make you mad then all I can say is screw you. You are a terrible person. Empathy is not a bad thing, despite what sociopath internet trolls seem to believe. I won't deny that I feel it or apologize for it in the slightest. |
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