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Literally everything you post, ikillchicken, is so full of hyperbole and vapid generalizations about whomever you may be talking to that it becomes hard to ever take you seriously. Do you honestly believe that the majority of the gaming community is like that? Seriously? You are almost as bad as Chagen, who is by far the most angry, antagonistic individual I have ever encountered on the internet. Oh, and Rahxephon, your critique on "Nippon fanboys" is extremely ironic in that you have the same exact issues when trying to push your own agenda.

B00m23 wrote:

Do you honestly believe that the majority of the gaming community is like that?

Nope. Just the shithead Gamergate supporters. I've been pretty clear about that really. Not sure how anyone would miss that if they're being remotely honest.

And if you find me antagonistic well...yeah. That sounds about right. As I said originally, there's no pretense about what Gamergate is at this point. It's a reactionary attack on diversity and progressive values in gaming. It's only about "corruption" in the sense that discussion of said diversity and values constitutes "corruption" in the minds of these people. It has done nothing to improve or even attempt to improve journalism. It has only succeeded in providing a platform for mass harassment. It has caused endless grief and suffering and set gaming back a decade easily. It's led by dishonest 8chan misanthropes and a variety of open bigots. Basically every move it has made has been outed as a calculated ploy to manipulate public perception. It's a full blown hate movement when you get right down to it. So yeah, you bet your ass I'm antagonistic toward it. If you don't like that...maybe find something less wholesale awful to support and defend? That's all I can really tell you.

No the topic was merely where creative games are coming from, spewed from the dumb statement of Japan being the bastion of creativity. Which was stated by a person who not only decided to ignore western games, but also wanted to just claim that indie games simply have an agenda and aren't coming from a place of creativity. No that they are actually just pandering to Shonen Jump Weekly. This is based purely on the fact that the poster dosen't like them.

You discounted indie games because thats what you do in every thread.

You're comparison to doujin games is faulty because these indie games are being made by actual industry companies/members, being sold commercially sometimes even at retail, and pushed by companies. They are only indie in the sense that that aren't directly funded by companies. Beyond that these games are being produced and pushed as actual commercial products. They aren't fan games.

It is not telling to bring them up as an example of the diversity in the western game market, because they take up a decent part of the core market these days. Also, because you simply chose to ignore what other western developers do or just throw them into one catch all term.

If the western industry is stagnate. What is the Japanese side? There's no doubt the western AAA scene has it's problems, but lets not sit here and lie(or make up excuses on your side) that it's all sunshine and flowers in Japan. Of course none of you would ever admit that.

You haven't defined originality and so it's impossible to even talk about it. It's such a vague and ill defined at this point. Especially since hardly any game is original.

Apparently, Nintendo using it's same formula is risk taking and original to you.

No one makes kart games, but since Nintendo does that's apparently risky. Risky to make the same game what 10 times over because no one does it.

Of course you have no problem with that, but will gladly decry western series that pump out games that are refinements over an already proven and well established formula. It's ok for Nintendo to do it, but no one else.

You just described Rogue Legacy as using a combination unlike any other game. Yet regardless you decided to write it off as nothing. It's impossible to argue with anyone who's idea of originality means it has to be Japanese.

Quote:

Oh, and Rahxephon, your critique on "Nippon fanboys" is extremely ironic in that you have the same exact issues when trying to push your own agenda.

Could you please explain what your talking about? What agenda? That both sides have thier pros and cons and its annoying to have the same fanbosy in ANN push the same tired rhetoric? Thats an agenda? Thats ironic?

um.....what are you talking about?

lostrune wrote:

So if one country is already more diverse then to take risks they have to exert themselves more than one that isn't as diverse.

One is not more diverse than the other - one just does things that the other doesn't, and vice versa. Westerners think Japan is more diverse because Japan does what West doesn't, while Japanese think West is more diverse because West does what Japan doesn't.

lostrune wrote:

Remember when Blizzard was known as the king of RTS rather than MMOs and Free to Play card games? I wish they'd go back to that even if it's unoriginal for them to make an RTS.

How is it unoriginal for them to make another RTS? Is NIS unoriginal for them to make another RPG? Type-Moon unoriginal making another visual novel? (which isn't really a game, but hey some people do) Is Nintendo unoriginal because they make another Super Mario Bros? Is unoriginality so simple? And Japan doesn't even do traditional RTS because they don't play PCs.

Let me see if I can think up of more innovative western games. Most of these are from indie developers, but the reasons are simple: Indie developers are more flexible than large companies and can thus afford to come out with weird stuff; and an indie company cannot stand out unless it produces something truly innovative.

Western games made over the past 8 years that have done something unusual without it being a reaction to something else: The Unfinished Swan, Stacking, Thomas Was Alone, Dust: An Elysian Tail, Freedom Planet, I Wanna Be the Guy, Zen Pinball 2, Plants vs. Zombies, Guacamelee, Siesta Fiesta, Journey, Proteus, Kerbal Space Program, Robot Unicorn Attack, Braid, The Cave, The Walking Dead (Telltale), Minecraft, Terraria, The Misadventures of P.B. Winterbottom, Henry Hatsworth and the Puzzling Adventure, KickBeat, Scribblenauts, Portal, Jett Rocket, Bastion, The Stanley Parable, Iron Brigade, Divekick, Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams, Donkey Kong Country Returns, and Dropchord. I know I left a lot of meteor-impactful games too, but they're not at the top of my head at the moment.

Even Angry Birds looked and played like something few people were familiar with when it was new.

As a pinball person, I can also say that within this time period, the following pinball machines have also done something unusual without it being a reaction to something else: The Wizard of Oz, Full Throttle, Whoa Nellie! Big Juicy Melons, AC/DC, The Big Lebowski, Spider-Man, America's Most Haunted, Timeshock!, and New Canasta. Of course, pinball is western by default, as there are no known pinball makers in eastern countries currently (the last one was SEGA in Japan, which quit in 1979).

Rahxephon91 wrote:

Why is it that you people chose to ignore developers like Relic, Creative Assembly, telltale, Ubisofts various efforts, double fine, Mojang, Firxais, and the countless other developers who don't make Just fps or sports games like your clearly bias anti-western people constantly like to paint the western market as?

Where would WayForward fit into this? Is it no longer a small company, considering Yacht Club spun off from it?

enurtsol wrote:

One is not more diverse than the other - one just does things that the other doesn't, and vice versa. Westerners think Japan is more diverse because Japan does what West doesn't, while Japanese think West is more diverse because West does what Japan doesn't.

I'm not surprised that Japanese fans of western gaming would feel that way, considering I noticed many of them are into first-person shooters, sandbox games, and other genres popular in the west but not in Japan.

ikillchicken wrote:

thenix wrote:

So you are saying that Conservatives always take the side of status quo and Liberals always take the position of change? (Or as you call it progress)

Nope. It depends on what "change" you're talking about. Conservativism is by the most basic definition the view that things either are now or were at some point in the past ideal and we should either keep to or return to that status quo. Your example doesn't apply here. Or to use a more pronounced example: "Hey, we should go back to not letting women vote" is obviously not a progressive position even though it favors "change". For while it may radically challenge the way things are now, it only does so insofar as championing a return to a past status quo that prevailed through much of history.

You basically just allowed yourself to call anything you want conservative and anything you want liberal. You redefined what you even defined conservative to be in the first place. But now it's wanting a return to how things used to be. (instead of keeping things the way they are like you first said) Your example of not wanting women to vote. Well before that women could vote. Since both are part of the past you can pick which ever one you want to be conservative and which ever you want to be liberal. I think this post is already done but I'm done since you can't actually debate points.

enurtsol wrote:

One is not more diverse than the other - one just does things that the other doesn't, and vice versa. Westerners think Japan is more diverse because Japan does what West doesn't, while Japanese think West is more diverse because West does what Japan doesn't.

What is your evidence for thinking Japan thinks that way? Most of the general reaction to western games in Japan I have seen is a resounding "meh". They're considered either "kusoge" or "shit games" or just do not interest most Japanese gamers enough to acknowledge them. This is pretty evident just by looking at sales figures where only a handful of western games throughout history have sold decently, let alone well in Japan. On the flip side you have tons of Japanese games which sell millions in the west every year, from Mario, to Pokemon, to Final Fantasy, to Resident Evil, to Animal Crossing. Apparently there's still a large demand for Japanese games in America, but not so much the reverse over there.

It might not be PC to say as such, especially in recent years, but not everything is created equal in the real world. It is perfectly acceptable to say one group might be in a better position than another. The western game industry is larger and more profitable, but the Japanese game industry is more diverse and experimental. I'll add onto leafy sea dragon's comment and say it's probably because the western game industry has become so big and profitable it has scared those companies of doing anything off the beaten path, so every big game that comes out has to appeal to the majority audience: self-insertive white dude protagonists, usually toting a gun in his arsenal, because the majority of American gamers are white dudes who like shooting things. There's nothing wrong with that at it's core, but when you've let that become your main audience, you have to accept the notion that is what you are going to be limited to do now if you want to make the same kinds of money as before.

And at the risk of dipping my toes back into the discussion, that's probably why, as Lavnovice9 put it "Japan doesn't pander/have people who care about social justice" or whatever the argument was. There is no need for them to care about these issues because they are already being sated. This is how I'd see the discussion goes down.

Westerner: "I don't like this game, it is not made for my demographic.. in fact nothing is, so I will blog about it and complain about it and make videos to raise awareness and start a movement asking to see more made for me and how I don't like what's being made"

Japanese: "I don't like this game, it is not made for my demographic.. so I will go play these games which do appeal to me which is a variety of different games out there. Games with female protagonists I can relate to, male bishi protagonists I can oogle just like men do for female protagonists or games which are just general fun like Mario, Pokemon, Monster Hunter."

I wonder if the the stereotype that Japan is full of sexism stems from the more open view of sexuality in games they have compared to the west, in addition to the fact games which pander/aim at women are never released here, or when they are people do not perceive female pandering the same way the Japan does. After all, people in the west were calling FFXV sexist for not having playable females, but in Japan, as well as the anime/Japanese video game community in America, everyone was joking how Final Fantasy was aimed at women now with all the fujoshi-bait in it. I wonder what the west would consider pandering to females if not a bunch of bishonen pretty boys.

thenix wrote:

You redefined what you even defined conservative to be in the first place. But now it's wanting a return to how things used to be. (instead of keeping things the way they are like you first said)

Nope. I never defined Conservativism initially as simply "opposing any change". That was your wrongful inference. It's not change per se that Conservativism rejects but the new, non-traditional progressive ideas that tend to (often if by no means always) drive that change. So yes, once again, that means Conservativism can take two forms: Either the defense of the current status quo or an attempt to return to the way things were in the past. This is because in both these instances one favors traditional practices and situations in lieu of new, non-traditional progressive ideas. Honestly, I'm not sure what about this is even controversial. This is pretty much the most basic and accepted definition of Conservativism.

Quote:

Your example of not wanting women to vote. Well before that women could vote. Since both are part of the past you can pick which ever one you want to be conservative and which ever you want to be liberal.

I don't know what argument you're trying to make here. Before women could vote...women could vote? This seems to be what you're saying here. And you're not seriously suggesting that repealing the right of women to vote wouldn't be a conservative position are you? Honestly, if you want people to actually understand your points you need to be much clearer.

Fedora-san wrote:

enurtsol wrote:

One is not more diverse than the other - one just does things that the other doesn't, and vice versa. Westerners think Japan is more diverse because Japan does what West doesn't, while Japanese think West is more diverse because West does what Japan doesn't.

What is your evidence for thinking Japan thinks that way? Most of the general reaction to western games in Japan I have seen is a resounding "meh". They're considered either "kusoge" or "shit games" or just do not interest most Japanese gamers enough to acknowledge them. This is pretty evident just by looking at sales figures where only a handful of western games throughout history have sold decently, let alone well in Japan.

Some of my J-pals are gamers; we talk about the industry often enough. And yes, I'm familiar about the concept of "kusoge":

1) It's already been changing the last few years, as the new generation of J-gamers are replacing the old curmudgeons who are too set on their old way of thinking. (Ex: GTA V is the best-selling home console game in Japan of 2013.)

2) It's ethnocentrism that proves my point that it doesn't have to do with current state of affairs but outright dismissing something without an open mind.

Fedora-san wrote:

On the flip side you have tons of Japanese games which sell millions in the west every year, from Mario, to Pokemon, to Final Fantasy, to Resident Evil, to Animal Crossing. Apparently there's still a large demand for Japanese games in America, but not so much the reverse over there.

That's because Western gamers have good taste. Have ya ever considered that most J-gamers have bad taste or just not open-minded enough? Smile

(No really, it has happened. For the longest time, while the world were enjoying their smartphones, Japanese held onto their Galapagos phones. So just because the Japanese don't like something doesn't mean they can't have bad taste or afraid to venture out beyond what they're used to.)

Furthermore, we're not talking about sales here - we're talking about believing diversity. So what if Western games don't sell in Japan? They can still believe the West is more diverse, while they just don't like to play those games, or just prefer to keep playing RPGs or whatever they're comfortable with.

Fedora-san wrote:

It might not be PC to say as such, especially in recent years, but not everything is created equal in the real world. It is perfectly acceptable to say one group might be in a better position than another. The western game industry is larger and more profitable, but the Japanese game industry is more diverse and experimental.

I don't much care about being PC. Japan is well-known primarily RPGs, VNs/dating sims, and the occasional schmups - and that's fine; they're good at it. They won't do FPS, RTS or anything that needs computers, not much MMOs or sandbox like Minecraft since they prefer to play with themselves alongside a story told to them, few sports except a couple each year (their baseball and their soccer and maybe Gran Turismo every several years, and no KuroBas et al. ain't since the point of that is not sports but the characters). Point is, Japan hardly does all things - they do most what they're good at, and that's fine. (I didn't mention some of the other types since Japan and the West do those both, regardless how much the sales.)

Fedora-san wrote:

I'll add onto leafy sea dragon's comment and say it's probably because the western game industry has become so big and profitable it has scared those companies of doing anything off the beaten path, so every big game that comes out has to appeal to the majority audience: self-insertive white dude protagonists, usually toting a gun in his arsenal, because the majority of American gamers are white dudes who like shooting things. There's nothing wrong with that at it's core, but when you've let that become your main audience, you have to accept the notion that is what you are going to be limited to do now if you want to make the same kinds of money as before.

AAA games, yes, like Hollywood, the bigger the monetary investment, the more money they can lose, the less jobs they can risk. But there are other games many people or even those such as you don't like Western games may not put the effort to notice stuff getting lost amongst the media airwaves dominated by AAA promotions. For all of Hollywood's grand excesses, no one can deny that they also produce other movies - and it's the same for Western games. Friends have hundreds of games of all kinds on Steam - and that's just on one platform. Just gotta try; if can't find, that's on that person.

On the flip side, Japanese game industry has its own challenges too. If ya haven't noticed, traditional J-gaming industry has been declining in favor of mobile gaming - they're already 50-50 market share last year. Handheld gaming has been holding out better, but home console gaming has definitely taken the brunt. The J-game weekly sales reports have been more and more becoming like the J-anime weekly sales reports - with a few really big sellers, while the rest struggling to go past 4 digits. Leads to its own set of limitations, from how much time and resources one can fund into a game, to the very slim margin between an OK-seller to a disaster so that they can't take too much risks. The less and less money in it, the harder and harder to find investors and get your game off the ground.

Fedora-san wrote:

I wonder if the the stereotype that Japan is full of sexism stems from the more open view of sexuality in games they have compared to the west, in addition to the fact games which pander/aim at women are never released here, or when they are people do not perceive female pandering the same way the Japan does. After all, people in the west were calling FFXV sexist for not having playable females, but in Japan, as well as the anime/Japanese video game community in America, everyone was joking how Final Fantasy was aimed at women now with all the fujoshi-bait in it. I wonder what the west would consider pandering to females if not a bunch of bishonen pretty boys.

A lot of these shenanigans are stupid, but still, a few significant factors people have to keep in mind about Japan: it's not in their culture to rock the boat too much (they don't protest a lot, instead the phenomenon of "shoganai"); it's still largely a patriarchal society despite what shows up in anime/manga (which is actually one of their more balanced fields); male and female roles have pretty rigid separation (e.g. husbands only hang out with other husbands, wives with other wives, husbands don't become friends with other people's wives - and this can apply to games, these are boys games, those are girls games, and never the twain shall meet); gaming is not mainstream in Japan but rather considered a niche hobby. The West is not Japan; Japan is not the West, for good and bad. Such differences account much for the contrasting reactions among gamers and the public.

If one really needs proof of the problems the industry is facing, look no further than what's going on right now. Bayonetta 2, a sexist, pandering male fantasy game gets a 10/10 and universal praise from everyone. Legend of Korra, a progressive game featuring not only a non-sexualized female protagonist, but one of non-white descent, receives negative scorn for daring to do something different. feel really queasy right now. I thought we were past this.

Last edited by Rahxephon91 on Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:01 am; edited 1 time in total

It's getting panned because it's a cheaply made and bad game. There's nothing progressive about it. Simply having a female character dosen't make you progressive. It's not daring to do anything different either. It's a cheap licensed game and nothing more.

Bayonetta is'nt a sexist game. A tna game thats pandery? Yes, but it's not hateful to women. Bayonetta herself has actual agency and at least owns her sex appeal. It could be problematic, but a good game with heavy sex appeal is hardly a terrible thing and certainly not the face of the problem with the game industry.

Then again, I believe you're a troll account now. Can't believe I fell for it before.

Suzy J Webber wrote:

If one really needs proof of the problems the industry is facing, look no further than what's going on right now. Bayonetta 2, a sexist, pandering male fantasy game gets a 10/10 and universal praise from everyone. Legend of Korra, a progressive game featuring not only a non-sexualized female protagonist, but one of non-white descent, receives negative scorn for daring to do something different. feel really queasy right now. I thought we were past this.

Suzy, maybe they're describing how the game plays.

Korra looks like a game made on a budget and/or one made quickly to get some quick profits. It'd be unusual for Platinum to do such a thing, but if they're in financial troubles, beggars can't be choosers. (Bayonetta 2 looks like an expensive game to make, and I doubt it'll sell well as it's been sandwiched between two Smash Bros. games.)

And regarding large companies and flexibility, Japanese companies are just as rigid. Capcom, Squaresoft, and SEGA are just as risk-averse as EA, Ubisoft, and Activision. (Heck, Activision took a HUGE risk with Skylanders, which was not only expensive to make the game for but expensive to make the figurines.) All three of those Japanese companies have been struck hard making sequels that don't really change much. Nintendo is an exception because it has a company policy of nothing-ventured-nothing-gained (that is, it has a long history of taking crazy risks and doing weird stuff even with its sequels), and I think with Nintendo, it's less the case of it being Japanese and more with it being Nintendo. It's basically the Japanese counterpart to Apple, albeit in different industries.

From what I understand, Korra is just a budget game that Activison passed off to Platinum to make. Given it's short development time, and the fact Bayonetta 2 was their primary focus, Korra was either handled by a subcontracted team or a group of their interns and not high on their priority list. I would also imagine the license did not help them either. Platinum games are usually known for their very over the top visuals and themes of both violence and sex. Since Korra is a children's property, that's two things Platinum would not be able to do with the game. Reviews calling it bland and forgettable as a result make sense. It's a Platinum game where Platinum is not allowed to be Platinum.

Speaking of Activison, I'm not sure they should be praised for risk taking when they stick with Call of Duty and other big shooter titles as their main draw. They seem to be second place behind EA in companies that receive a lot of hate from gamers. I can not speak for Capcom or SEGA as I have not played much from them recently, but Square has been pretty diverse in it's output. The Final Fantaxy XIII trilogy, despite all being the same franchise, all play differently. From the more traditional XIII, to the more action-packed Lightning Returns. Final Fantasy XV also looks far more action-oriented. Final Fantasy has been a series which have tried a lot of unique and different things each installment.

Square Enix is also the company that did something no other company would probably dare to do, they fixed Final Fantasy XIV. When XIV launched and was a failure, most companies would have either cancelled it outright or simply go free-to-play like every other MMO on the market that is not World of Warcraft. Instead, the employees went back and worked on the game for a year, all while offering it for free to everyone to play in the meantime. Then they relaunched it to success. If it had failed a second time, the company probably would have suffered heavy financial failure. It's definitely a move most companies would not have done. Other MMOs at the time were converting to Free-to-Play, like The Old Republic and Rift. I would argue that because Square is Japanese company that is why they were able to do that most likely.

Platinum is a work for hire developer and Korra is just a job they were paid to do. There is nothing more to it. That dosen't mean Platinum should get off the hook for delivering a sub-par game, but no it clearly was not a priority like most licensed games for these kinds of developers.

Also I see nothing special about 14's case. It's not like other developers haven't taken an MMO that had a weak launched and were then able to fix the game into something better.

I'm not sure what being Japanese has to do in 14's case. More like Sqaure had the money and too much of an investment to let 14 fail so they had to fix it and craft it into something better. How that is unique to them being Japanese you don't say.

Regardless, it's not like they turned 14 into anything other then a modern WoW clone.

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