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EP. REVIEW: CROSS ANGE Rondo of Angel and Dragon


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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 2658
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:00 pm Reply with quote
Fist and foremost, this review is worthy of applause.

Second. To me, it tells something about a society when murder (or even torture) is a valid plot device in a work of fiction, but rape is not.

Third. To me, it tells a lot about anime fandom that Cross Ange (written for a male audience) gets a lot of hate, but princess yona (written for a female audience) gets none. I am not trying to say people should go into forums and start to flame said series. TBT I am watching Cross Ange as well as Yona of the Dawn (which reminds me a lot of Fushigi Yuugi) and enjoying both. But if you hate a series, there will always be something negative to say about it. But it looks to me like some people feel like Cross Ange went into their backyard and killed the family dog with extreme prejudice.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:03 pm Reply with quote
This is a thread to discuss the show and Theron's review of the show. It is not open season on everyone who disagrees with you about Cross Ange and it isn't going to turn into a giant flamewar, so pre-emptively doing the "everyone who took exception to the material in Cross Ange is a stupid pansy" routine is completely unnecessary and will be considered trolling for the sake of starting fights. So knock it off.

Discuss the show, your view of it and Theron's reviews. That's it.
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residentgrigo



Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 2418
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:28 pm Reply with quote
I for one am not actively watching this thing and never will because i have seen one train wreck too many to even care. This said will be following the 4chan cover edge every monday ! This has to be the intended audience(or Sankaku ?) and the thread is even better then expected. Especially the sex fetish counter and the fanart. But hey i like one thing.
Proper use of engrish. That´s the ticket sunrise.
Bit i now have found out why this show is the the way it is. Mitsuo Fukuda is actively producing. Now i understand ! The man complained that he can´t get away with anything these days a few month ago and is actively stepping in to correct that injustice. Strike Freedom has already showed up in previews or something. I may even watch a few minutes when Jesus Yamato finally descends from his hiatus and will then i will adjust my score to 1/10 and laugh my ballz off. A am also hoping for the series itself to become racist by having the villains be Americans or Chinese from the future. Dear anime gods let that dream come true.
If you enjoyed this representation i recommend Aki Sora and Wolf Guy. These two sick puppies cured me of guilty pleasure reading for real. The new Queen´s Balde ova series is supposed to something else too. But if you didn't get enough even then i further recommend Cross Ange´s 3(!) manga adaptations. The main one is even by an hentai artist and has a sexualized scene of the lead vomiting while being tortured. God bless you Comic Walker. Expect for me to show up again in half a year after my 4chan experiment ends. Twisted Evil
And the memes are already comming in strong:
http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/842804-anime

Why is this show beeing compared to Yona of the Dawn ? That one is a decent young girls manga to my knowledge.
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lhernan02



Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 196
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:53 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Discuss the show, your view of it and Theron's reviews. That's it.


With all due respect Zac, where was this righteous anger in the previous pages long flame wars of previous threads (if you showed it after page 3, then sorry I missed it since I stopped following) and in the post following yours which personally attacks those following/defending this show (frankly I don't have a problem with it since it is only page 2 and this is the first personal attack, but it goes toward your admonition). So far most posts have been about the review/show with only two being tangentially about the flame wars.

Also, Key is a mod, should he not be allowed to mod his own thread, he is free to close/ban/call out anyone he finds bothersome to the discussion which, again, is only 2 pages long so far, too short to be derailed yet.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:58 pm Reply with quote
lhernan02 wrote:
So far most posts have been about the review/show with only two being tangentially about the flame wars.

Also, Key is a mod, should he not be allowed to mod his own thread, he is free to close/ban/call out anyone he finds bothersome to the discussion which, again, is only 2 pages long so far, too short to be derailed yet.


I am Theron's editor and an administrator on this forum. I am setting very clear ground rules now. This thread will go on for months, so I'm saying upfront what the expectations are. There's nothing else to discuss.
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ryanvamp



Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 416
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:01 pm Reply with quote
EDIT: By the time I finished writing this, I haven't seen mangamuscle's and Zac's intervention on this very same thread. Still, I decide to leave my message just as it is. Feel free to mod my post if you deem it necessary, but I just want to point out that I have this account since 2007 and I made several posts about everything in all these years. You can disagree with me or plain ignore me, but I would hate to see posting my two cents as "trolling".

FINALLY a decent review for this series. While we can disagree about the score, it ends up being a really a trivial matter, since I can respect the arguments you're using and how you structured your points.

I was annoyed at the hypocrisy of a couple of other reviewers who did episode 1 (I wasn't surprised though, but I have to be very careful about my wording), and it's nice to see a more relaxed, grounded and analytical point of view.

I'd like to point out something though, which relates to the first sentence of the previous paragraph:

Quote:
Yona of the Dawn, a pure fantasy story clearly made with female audiences in mind, takes the more romantic approach, with the princess being aided and protected by a powerful, dashing male warrior and eventually surrounded by a bevy of other male warriors. Even the usurper is a handsome guy who probably actually does love her, too, and apparently has very mixed feelings about getting her involved in his coup.


While I perfectly understand Cross Ange can be seen as something that lacks taste and is far from subtle, I am baffled at the double standards people have when watching anime.

Several shojo stories (or the newer trend:effeminate/bishonen/manly guys who bond over sports/singing/whatever works) are as sexist and detached from reality regarding how they treat their characters (they just either "objectify" men in a diff manner or they make the female MC undecisive & blush every 30 seconds at every flirting moment) yet randomly get a free pass and get away with doing this stuff just because it's seen as harmless and a rule of its genre.

I understand the "forced" aspect of some scenes might be what threw a lot of people off, and I can agree with that being offensive if the series is showcasing them in a sexy manner. But I do not believe that every other merit the series might have going on for it should be overlooked and reacting in an outrageous manner to prove you have your morals in the right place. And I certainly disagree with thinking it's fine "in that one" but not "in this one".

Bottomline if the reviewers would apply the same strict moral compass to other animes and started calling them out on everything wrong with them regarding what kind of message they're conveying, at least I could disagree with a consistent point of view. Which is always more pleaseant to read.

Having said that, I don't have a problem with the kind of stories I mentioned, I just happen to not watch them. So it's cool that this review notes that Cross Ange is certainly not for many of you while at the same time it doesn't judge whoever watches it.


Last edited by ryanvamp on Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Angel M Cazares



Joined: 23 Sep 2010
Posts: 5421
Location: Iscandar
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:09 pm Reply with quote
I think I have accepted that CROSS ANGE uses shocking and sensationalist content as its main calling card. I think the sexual and abuse content is titillation, but I have the stomach to handle it. I was genuinely interested in how this trashy show might turn out after the first episode, but the overall writing has been mediocre.

I usually find Theron's reviews informative and neutral (if this makes any sense), but I am disappointed that he is rationalizing the final scene of episode one as a standard procedure. I disagree with that assessment. That scene was intended to give a hard on to the intended audience (horny otakus).

Also, this show is not somewhat trashy, it is totally trashy.
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SilverTalon01



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 2402
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:10 pm Reply with quote
Kurai_Seraphim wrote:
There is nothing standard about that exam. You can come up with sketchy plot justifications for a rape scene as not being a rape scene, but it was completely written like one, drawn as one, and even had lingering body with blood pooling under the lower torso on the floor after shot of one.


No, really it was. Cavity searches aren't rape and they are standard. You resist and on top of that belittle the prison guard, then you probably shouldn't expect them to be gentle... especially when she has no incentive to be nice about it and no repercussions for doing it the way she did. Its basically the same idea as 'don't piss off the person who makes your food because you don't know what they will do to it.' Only this time its more don't piss off the guards because they don't consider you to have any human rights protecting you from brutal treatment.

The only thing I found potentially objectionable was that right up to that point, the focus was on fan service.

If you want rape to talk about, episode 2 conveniently serves that one up.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:15 pm Reply with quote
For the record, the above back and forth between angelmcazares and SilverTalon01 is what we're expecting in terms of disagreement and debate. What we're trying to avoid is namecalling and attempts at claiming your opinion, whatever it might be, is the "right" one and everyone who disagrees is a [woman-hating misogynist/thin-skinned censorship-minded pansy].

That's it. That's all. It isn't an unreasonable request or anything that's worth your time fighting against. Just be cool and everything will be fine.
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SilverTalon01



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 2402
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:54 pm Reply with quote
angelmcazares wrote:
I usually find Theron's reviews informative and neutral (if this makes any sense), but I am disappointed that he is rationalizing the final scene of episode one as a standard procedure. I disagree with that assessment. That scene was intended to give a hard on to the intended audience (horny otakus).


I thought he was pretty objective and neutral. I mean I think the extremes would be 'nah that wasn't trashy or objectionable whatsoever' and 'anyone who would make or watch this is a misogynist.' His stance of calling them 'racy,' 'potentially objectionable,' and ' at most only partially justfied' seems pretty neutral to me (single quotes because I'm paraphrasing my interpretation of it).

To me, thats pretty much what I would like in a review. He explains why people might be offended and why people might not be without jumping to an extreme. I don't need a review to tell me how I should feel about something because I can do that myself, but I do think covering potential issues that might put people off is important.

I don't think its fair for you to presume to know what the creators intended with the scene. While the show certainly offers T&A for horny otakus, the show also clearly loves brutal gory scenes (such as how all 3 pilots die in episodes 2 and 3) which is really a different kind of fan service. I think it is equally reasonable that the creators could have intended that final part to make clear their intentions to provide that in addition to the boobs and mechs.
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residentgrigo



Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 2418
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:55 pm Reply with quote
Dear Theron this board is to a great start already. I just typed in your name and the sites into goggle to find out where your baffling review is coming from.
And i now found out that you are already getting internet famous for this show´s coverage. I hope it turn out well. I am HIGHLY anticipate your final write up. You should also at least acknowledge the series blatant reuse of the esthetics of from sunrise anime gone by. I know that they are sunrises property and not plagiarism but man oh man it is baffling how few ideas this show even has. The only new this thing show has going for it to my knowledge is the leads sexual arouse while killing dragons. That could be new !
By the way the original mecha hentai this anime takes from is the Hades Project Zeorymer manga. So this one will be in Robot Wars too. Yay.
Chagen46 your review i like. This show is indeed on of the worst directed peaces of televison i have seen or will now look at in gif form. 90% of hentai i have watched had better directing and character motivation. I find it quite sad that i can´t get the train wreck spirit going but fetishised rape and homophobia proved to deadly for me. School Days i will allways have you. Peace out for real and see you in 22 episodes.
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Niflheimr



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 23
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:37 pm Reply with quote
I’ll jump into the fray once more with an observation from reading this thread. Interesting to notice that several people are glad that a somewhat positive review is finally made for it, like they needed it to somehow justify liking a controversial series.

If the writing is up to Therons usual standard, I can honestly say I got no qualms after nipping this in the bud after the first episode.
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SilverTalon01



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 2402
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:38 pm Reply with quote
residentgrigo wrote:
You should also at least acknowledge the series blatant reuse of the esthetics of from sunrise anime gone by. I know that they are sunrises property and not plagiarism but man oh man it is baffling how few ideas this show even has.


Care to elaborate on a few? I've seen a lot of mech anime (and a lot of that is sunrise), and I can't think of anything in this that is a blatantly reused aesthetic. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything. I could just be oblivious to it. So if you can point out some specifics, that would be much appreciated.

Niflheimr wrote:
I’ll jump into the fray once more with an observation from reading this thread. Interesting to notice that several people are glad that a somewhat positive review is finally made for it, like they needed it to somehow justify liking a controversial series.


I wouldn't say a C of any kind is positive. I'd interpret a C more as 'eh, you could do worse.' And I think you're making a sweeping generalization there that people liked his review because of how he rated it. I don't think those two things necessarily go together. I have liked plenty of negative reviews on ANN and still strongly disagreed with their conclusion. I don't think you have to agree with some one's opinion to like the way that they expressed it.

Personally, I liked it because he didn't get emotional or preachy about it and stayed objective. That is say in comparison to some of the preview guide reviews that got emotional and threw around a bunch of trigger words. Not that those reviewers aren't entitled to that response or that they shouldn't be allowed to do that, but that isn't how I tend to like reviews. I like them either objective like this one or ones just clearly making a joke out of it (some of Zac's preview guide reviews have been really amusing).
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Angel M Cazares



Joined: 23 Sep 2010
Posts: 5421
Location: Iscandar
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:03 pm Reply with quote
SilverTalon01 wrote:
He explains why people might be offended and why people might not be without jumping to an extreme. I don't need a review to tell me how I should feel about something because I can do that myself, but I do think covering potential issues that might put people off is important.


I like that Theron explains in his review the good, bad and ugly things about the show's premise. My issue is that when it comes to abuse done for titillation, I cannot see anything redeemable on it. CROSS ANGE is a bad written show with no substance that needs to relay on sensationalizing brutality and sexual abuse to appeal to a certain audience

I think Theron is giving the show's creators too much credit by presuming that the objectionably content is there to somehow clarify and strength the premise. I am convinced that the objectionable content is there exclusively for titillation.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 4377
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:18 pm Reply with quote
(Resubmitting because of the earlier wonkiness)

gedata wrote:

I thought she would've gained at least a shred of respect for fellow Normas after Coco tried her darndest to reach out to her. At that point shouldn't the writers be trying to make Ange sympathizable? I get she's been going through hell but it's kinda hard to feel for her when she remains so darn unlikeable. And it's not just that one scene. I also find it rather difficult to believe that she could live as long as she did without noticing she's a Norma. Did she not have even a lick of curiosity regarding mana?


Look, it's really simple.

Cross Ange is rape porn. It's nominally a mecha show, but it is also rape porn.

However, most people don't want to watch a likeable character get raped, even if they want to watch them get raped. Thus, you make the character unlikeable. All of a sudden, now they deserve to be raped! Ah, yes, now you can feel less terrible while you wank off to sexualized violence to female characters!

That's it. I wouldn't mind it so much if the fans just admitted that they're jerking off to rape porn. Like, the show would still be disgusting, utterly nasty, and devoid of any worth, but at least they would be honest.

But even without the sexualized violence, the show delights in the brutal mutilation and murder of women anyway. This show is basically watching girls suffer without anything else to it. I mean, that can be good, Madoka was about girls suffering, but there was a point. Cross Ange is pointless. It's hollow. It's 24 minutes a week of fetishized suffering. We have no reason to care for Ange or hell any of the other characters. Ange is a monumentally stupid girl whose stubborness breaks the suspension of disbelief. The other characters are either too one-note to matter or die too quickly. And why should we care about the Empire? They're virulently racist and endorse military slavery.

So the show is utterly devoid of any sort of point or hook. It fails to give the watcher any other motivation to keep going on besides "watch girls get beaten and murdered sexually".

And even if it weren't pointless, the plot is filled with endless nonsense: Why are Normas so evil? We don't know. Why would you give people whom you violently discriminate against mecha with which they will fight dragons threatening your world? No sane empire would do this. Why was Ange completely ignorant of the fact that she was a Norma? And no, the excuse the shows gives (that she was told that she had no need to use Mana as a member of royalty) is completely nonsensical too: are you telling me that she never tried out using Mana just for shits and giggles once? No. No. I will not let Cross Ange insult me by pushing such ridiculousness as serious storytelling and expecting me to actually believe this crap.

Cross Ange attempts to be serious, but it has the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old boy. It's needlessly dark and trashy, but it's not the good kind of trashy. There's no ridiculous absurdity or feeling that next week's episode is gonna be even more over-the-top like you get in Code Geass or Guilty Crown.

This show is bad. Actually, no. It's not bad. It's fractally bad.
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