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EP. REVIEW: CROSS ANGE Rondo of Angel and Dragon


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HaruhiToy



Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 4118
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:02 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
Gina Szanboti wrote:
sincere apology for not realizing that her natural perfection might arouse jealousy in others. Very Happy

I did not see that. That is a hilarious small detail. Kind of feels praiseworthy for something like that.

I completely missed it as well. Great catch. I wonder how Momoka "finished" it. It was, after all, supposed to be 50 pages.

If I recall that was written in English rather than Kana. Is that something done to the original artwork for export or is drawn that way from the start? I notice anime often uses English instead of Japanese for many written documents and computer displays that appear. But when I look at the computer screen of one of my Japanese customers I get hit with a face full of Kanji, Katakana and Hiragana. What's the deal?
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:44 pm Reply with quote
In this case maybe they're trying to emphasize that this isn't a specifically Japan-based society? The meals in the few shots that have been shown of them don't look Japanese and characters don't use chopsticks to eat, and really no Japanese-specific trappings were shown either in Misurugi or in Arzenal.

But you're right about the thing with text on computer screens. Although it's hardly universal, it has been a pretty common practice in sci fi shows since at least the early '80s.
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VeryZenn



Joined: 20 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:13 am Reply with quote
This isn't my kind of show. I don't like mecha anime. I don't mind fan service but I'm too old to watch a show for it either. I don't care for graphic depictions of violence and gore.

Like i said. Not my kind of show. But the cover caught my eye as i was flipping through Crunchyroll and I decided to give it a watch just to see what it was about. I'll just spoiler the rest as I'm not much for talking around things.

spoiler[The show isn't subtle. No argument there. The setting is sort of fascinating though. You have a world that uses magic (which basically just seems to be telekinesis except when it might be technological in origin) the way we use electricity. It's everywhere. Now imagine that you have people in our world who can disrupt electronics just by touching them. What would you do with someone like that? They aren't going to be able to interact with society properly because there is a fundamental expectation that everyone can use magic. Now we toss in a world conflict (this is mostly speculation of course.) where in the use of magic actually opens portals to the realm of dragons who can use magic on a crazy level. How do you fight the dragons? Well, you have a minority group which will be at best disruptive of society but on the other hand they are at least somewhat immune to the dragons' magic as a result. (This is the only way i can reconcile the pilots not being effected by the gravity well as much as their mechs. Barring sloppy writing of course...of which there is some... anyway.) The problem of course is that you have a false utopia setting. So first we have to see the happy wonderful world and establish that as far as everyone is concerned the Normas are basically evil. The light of mana, the essence upon which their whole society is built, flees from their touch because there is something intrinsically wrong with them. Key is that first Norma we see is an infant being take from her mother. This establishes that most Norma are not being raised as regular citizens and then brought over to Arzenal when they are discovered, rather Ange is a major exception and the majority of the Norma on Arzenal are most likely raised there. Not only has Ange not been raised as a Norma, she has been raised as nobility. When they shunt her off to Arzenal the whole point is that she is about as far from being a good soldier as is possible. She hates Norma (because she is supposed to hate Norma) and she is entitled, spoiled and in denial of reality. The change of tone from her home country is meant to show that the world is not what has been presented to us and even more importantly that it is not what has been presented to her. The world she is actually living in is brutal and cruel and it only cares if she lives or dies in a very abstract sense.]

spoiler[The scene at the end of the first episode made me squirm in my seat. I personally got more of a cavity search thing going on but the truth is the scene was sloppily framed and it made figuring out what exactly was going on difficult. It was almost enough to make me stop watching. If there hadn't been another couple episode out or if the setting had seemed to have promise I likely would not have gone an further. I didn't find the level of disconnect between Zola being as sexual predator and Zola being a good commander to be a problem. It might be giving Sunrise too much credit but the truth is that people are complicated. She could be both a sexual predator and an excellent commander who cared deeply for her subordinates. It doesn't make her a very good person but that doesn't make the actions and reactions wrong from a story stand point even if they are wrong from an outside human standpoint. ]

spoiler[Now is this show going to go down as a giant of anime? No. I...uh... yeah. Just no. Regardless, I have come to accept a few things about anime over my (... good lord, is it actually so close to 25 years... ugh) many years of watching anime. First, it isn't made for me. I am not even a consideration of a consideration of the demographic analysis which informs the decisions made by the people that make this stuff. Second, the Japanese are not American. There are places where it can be hard to tell but interesting as Japanese culture is it isn't anything like my culture. As a result I have learned that for the most part my opinion is meaningless and if i don't like something then it probably just means that it was even more not for me than every other anime, and I just don't watch it anymore unless I am provided some compelling reason to continue. ]

TL/DR

While the show has been insensitive I think that this is primarily in order to firmly establish tone for the anime (This is an anime where horrible things are going to happen to the characters. Or perhaps even: This is not a fairy tale princess story.) and to provide a point of reference for how bad things are so that you can appreciate the arc of things becoming better. I may not like how it was done but the reasoning behind it is basic storytelling.
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residentgrigo



Joined: 23 Dec 2007
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:24 am Reply with quote
I am still following along with 2 picture blogs and 4chan(i had several laughing fits) and am just going to leave this uncommented here:
https://twitter.com/Kherubim2k/status/527464774817177600

A better one with the Geass ova guy sleeping on the side exists at 4chan. Reddit and gundamforums are still having a field day with this anime. See you when Fukudas midlife crisis ends and join the Jesus Yamato cut now.


Last edited by residentgrigo on Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:38 am; edited 2 times in total
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Key
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:10 pm Reply with quote
Izanagi009 wrote:
Edit; by modern anime, do you mean the pandering mess of fanservice and self-insert we have now? I know that elements of that were present back then but this is still stupid and Cross Ange feels more like a show using shock and sex to keep people invested instead, of you know, themes, narratives, characters

It's been using narratives and characters to help keep people invested for the last few episodes. While I certainly won't deny that fan service has been a major element here, this series does now have more going for it than just that (unlike, say, Trinity Seven).

And please don't try to claim that it was just "elements" of fan service present years ago. I could name you any number of titles from the '80s and '90s that depended at least as heavily on "shock and sex to keep people invested" as CA does. While there may have been a resurgence of that kind of thing over the years, it's been around for decades.
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HaruhiToy



Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:26 pm Reply with quote
Theron wrote:
That Ange would use Momoka and a visitor to stage a successful escape was expected, especially given the message from Sylvia last episode. What is a surprise is that Hilda is the one determined to join her, and that we apparently haven't seen the real Hilda before this point.

Something didn't quite jibe in the story at this point. It wasn't Ange that planned to use Momoka it was Hilda. Ange's escape plan was clearly spontaneous and half-baked at best. She didn't have any apparent plan for the deck locks and she clearly was intending to leave Momoka behind. Probably she was expecting to coerce Misty (if Misty actually needed coercing) to fly the ship.

As it was clearly Ange lucked out. Having Momoka to help her on the mainland has to improve her chances of accomplishing anything about 1000%. For her part Hilda has been thinking about this for a long time and I would enjoy it if we get to see how she fares.
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Izanagi009



Joined: 20 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:30 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
It's been using narratives and characters to help keep people invested for the last few episodes. While I certainly won't deny that fan service has been a major element here, this series does now have more going for it than just that (unlike, say, Trinity Seven).

And please don't try to claim that it was just "elements" of fan service present years ago. I could name you any number of titles from the '80s and '90s that depended at least as heavily on "shock and sex to keep people invested" as CA does. While there may have been a resurgence of that kind of thing over the years, it's been around for decades.


Personally, I found it's narrative and characters to be very weak, especially compared to other Sunrise works like Gundam Unicorn. After 5 episodes (though, your review of last week's episode made me reconsider going back), I found Ange to be unlikable(too stubborn and overly prideful) her character shift in episode 5 too off (articulating it would be difficult and probably start a flame war), and the content at times too tonally jarring or just plain stupid at times (the fact that Ange couldn't dress herself in episode 2 but somehow is above average in combat skills is a sticking point).

As for the fanservice/ shock and sex claim, sorry, I had meant the statement to refer to all anime across all time. I apologize for the wording. Still, I find that resurgence to be a bit detrimental to our medium's growth. People keep joking about our medium as porn (I had that in high school) and this kind of anime only prove their point.

The odd thing is that I could see a really good prison drama in Cross Ange if they did the framing of it's more questionable scenes a bit better, made Ange more likable, and did less fanservice and more dramatic stuff. As it stands, as your friend Zac put it, it's just a prison sexplotation anime to me.
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HaruhiToy



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:45 pm Reply with quote
Izanagi009 wrote:
As it stands, as your friend Zac put it, it's just a prison sexplotation anime to me.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

That might have been a supportable statement after the first several episodes but by this time the story has clearly expanded into a larger scope. Yeah it has its shortcomings but If it really were the trash its detractors are making it out to be we would still have Zola groping Ange in the broom closet.
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Izanagi009



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:55 pm Reply with quote
To be fair, given the fact that one of the primer examples is Ilsa: She Wolf of the SS and that generally they are considered along the line of B movies, I wouldn't exactly make a case for them being a good thing given the poor plot, overly indulgent scenes, and frankly poor justification for a fetish porn film.

I will admit to a bit of curiosity over what was teased in the fifth episode but the first 5 episodes didn't leave a good impression on me about how good the writers are and quite frankly, if I wanted yuri fanservice, I would read a doujin; certainly more erotic than this unrestranted mess
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Key
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:18 pm Reply with quote
The problem is that you stopped after five episodes, Izanagi009. The three highest episode grades that I have given have been for episodes 6-8. I certainly wouldn't hold it against anyone for having a low opinion of the series based on those first five, but in the last three episodes the storytelling has gotten distinctly better and the fan service distinctly less seedy.

Of course, I should also mention that, unlike you, I never found Ange being unlikable at first to be a problem. If a character is unlikable because they're irritating, that's one thing, but I always regarded Angelise as being more like Shoukei or Suzu from The Twelve Kingdoms: a character who was flawed because of her circumstances and naivete but capable of outgrowing it.

And HaruhiToy: The Next Episode preview did strongly suggest that next episode is going to at least partly follow Hilda.
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MidoriUma



Joined: 05 Sep 2014
Posts: 130
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:23 am Reply with quote
hey, sorry, random question... I still really like this series, does that mean I still hate women, as many people have labelled viewers of this show?
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Cptn_Taylor



Joined: 08 Nov 2013
Posts: 925
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:12 am Reply with quote
MidoriUma wrote:
hey, sorry, random question... I still really like this series, does that mean I still hate women, as many people have labelled viewers of this show?


No, it simply means you like Fukuda's works. Now if that's a reason to jump off the cliff it's up to you. I certainly wouldn't do it. Razz
After the revelation about Hilda in the last episode how can people say this is an anime against women ? Ange and Hilda are very much alike. One is full of pride and uncompromising character, the other tempered by her will to live at all costs. And yet both desire the same thing.

As for the yuri complaint. Hey it's a prison of women. What do you expect ? The same thing would happen in an all male prison. And even outside prison think about the samuraii caste. An all male environment is bound to create homosexual relationships of varying degrees. The only "bad" character we have seen up to now is Zola and she was offed in the 3rd episode if I'm not mistaken. Anime fans have become puritans (of all things Laughing ) and can't stand an anime that's funny, ose', self conscious and dramatic at the same time. Ange in the last episode said "we should be ashamed to wear these bikinis, they reveal even more than our pilot suits". How is this not funny and meta ?

And little by little a lot of pieces of the puzzle are coming together. There is a substantial plot to this anime. It's not just fanservice and yuri pandering.
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Izanagi009



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:28 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
The problem is that you stopped after five episodes, Izanagi009. The three highest episode grades that I have given have been for episodes 6-8. I certainly wouldn't hold it against anyone for having a low opinion of the series based on those first five, but in the last three episodes the storytelling has gotten distinctly better and the fan service distinctly less seedy.

Of course, I should also mention that, unlike you, I never found Ange being unlikable at first to be a problem. If a character is unlikable because they're irritating, that's one thing, but I always regarded Angelise as being more like Shoukei or Suzu from The Twelve Kingdoms: a character who was flawed because of her circumstances and naivete but capable of outgrowing it.


At your implicit suggestion, I decided to watch episodes 6-8 of Cross Ange and my conclusion is it's tolerable, not good and my take on it is still sour due to the first five episodes but they do make me somewhat curious about the world and Ange actually has some more clear positive traits behind her still very cold expression.

In addition, the fanservice is no longer so blatant. Maybe it's exposure causing numbness but at this point, it's mostly steam covered bodies, the ridiculous outfits and swimsuits (though I do roll my eyes at how the swimsuits, usually designed to attract people with skin, are less potent at drawing attention) and only one overly gratuitous lesbian scene. It also helps that we don't have any of the more "questionable" scenes.

As you said, writing is stronger now with much more character development happening; however, I will give no quarter to the lines surrounding the "virgin" DRAGOON stated in episode 7. That was a case of trying way too hard to appeal to a male audience to the point of me faceplaming.

I will continue to give it a watch but my bar for dropping it is still pretty low so it better not f it up.
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Key
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:33 am Reply with quote
I've heard "virgin" used enough IRL as a slang reference to someone who is doing a particular activity for the first time (one that often has nothing to do with sex) that I wouldn't even classify that as fan service.

And your observation about the swimsuits is part of what I was getting at with my "surprisingly tasteful" comment. I had expected them to go full-bore with the ultra-racy outfits and am still rather shocked that it didn't play out that way.
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HaruhiToy



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:10 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
And your observation about the swimsuits is part of what I was getting at with my "surprisingly tasteful" comment. I had expected them to go full-bore with the ultra-racy outfits and am still rather shocked that it didn't play out that way.

Particularly since most anime fill their fan service quota (yes there seems to be a quota) in the requisite beach episode.

I get the feeling that plans were changed midstream with regards to this during the production of CA. For example the bread-on-a-string eating contest was introduced with "dissolving swimsuits" with the participants all in the same one-piece instead of the bikinis they started with. Then we never see the actual event. There were other setups like that which were never developed.

Perhaps somebody screwed up counting the time they had, or maybe they are holding back material for the media release.

Like it or not and regardless of the actual motivation, CA seems to have decided to become more story driven and not just a cheesecake video like High School DxD or To Love Ru. (Both of which I liked well enough) CA is taking itself seriously and that may end up being its downfall, but at the end of the episode we all want to see what happens to Ange and that should be considered a win as far as any anime is concerned.
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