Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: CROSS ANGE Rondo of Angel and Dragon
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5823 Location: Virginia, United States |
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I think this was what Rederoin was referring to. Where everyone is punished for the actions of a few. Just like at school, where all the students are punished, because a couple of students wouldn't stop talking and the class teacher didn't want to send them to the principal, so the teacher takes away recess or some other perk at school. @jroa I don't know anything about pre-sale figures for the show, but controversy and fan service do sell. As long as the story and especially the animation aren't dismally bad, it should do well. As this show is marketed to the Japanese, whatever PC problems it has in the West will be meaningless in Japan. As to the West, it might do well over here too (as long as it is not censored). After all, everyone is talking about it. |
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Izanagi009
 Posts: 464 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA |
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Three comments: One- I am intrigued as to why it is not controversial over in Japan. Is it because of separation between the anime watching community and the majority of society in Japan in terms of world views and society obligations or is there something else that I am not seeing. I know that Japan typically is more accepting of sexuality at least in media given a long tradition of bara, yuri and erotica in ancient times dating back to the Tale of Genji but I also believe that the human response to framing of violent acts such as rape is relatively uniform across cultures. Two-Honestly, after Infinite Stratos's profitable BD/DVD sales, I don't think that quality is what sells shows but more pandering aspects of anime like fanservice and self-insert(the two elements of anime i despise). I swear, if this sells more than Psycho Pass 2 or Fate/ Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works, I will be one of the angriest otaku in the western world. Three- I guess the OP would sell this much. Nana Mizuki is one of the most popular singers in Japan, Oricon has her constantly in top 10 and honestly, she deserves it. The song is really good too, one of the few elements I will call an absolute positive of the show. |
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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Cross Ange may be a mecha show, but it is also designed to peddle women suffering for the enjoyment of the audience. The mecha are simply vehicles for that.
I literally never said this.
They were murdered by the creators, for the express enjoyment of the viewer. Stories do not exist in a vacuum. They are explictly created with certain intents.
Rextyn's response already pretty much said what I was going to say. As I said before, though: stories do not exist in a vacuum. The show isn't "just using" women because they happen to be there. It's "just using" women because it has been intentionally built to peddle sexualized violence towards female characters. Normas can only be female. Normas are who pilot the mecha. Normas are treated barely above animals. Every aspect of this show has been fit together to ensure that only female characters are the the ones suffering. Why? Because the show wants you to get off to that.
Except the characters have, as of now, triumphed over nothing. It's been three episodes and almost nothing important has happened. And no, two one-note characters dying does not count as anything important happening. Come on, dude, you're defending a show where in three episodes a girl has suffered a brutal cavity search, another one got brutally mutilated, and a third has pissed herself on screen. Is this the hill you want to die on? |
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MexicanAnime
 Posts: 23 Location: Houston, Texas |
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This show is entertaining for all the wrong reasons, which I'd expect from the guy who brought us Gundam Seed Destiny. Not surprising (unfortunately) seeing those sales numbers already given that this is one of those roller coaster shows some people will love.
The best character is the dog with the cute helmet, he feels the most human to me so far. I can see him going far in life, even if he is surrounded by tomb stones that have random English gibberish written on them. |
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jroa
Posts: 537 |
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This is precisely the sort of confusion that I was afraid would start to happen. At this point there are absolutely no sales numbers for anything except for the OP song. People who have no interest in the show will still buy the opening and closing songs if they like artists or just think the theme sounds nice.
Sunrise doesn't always make hits with their new series. In recent memory, Buddy Complex did not sell well for them at all. Neither did Gundam AGE, despite having the Gundam name. They both failed spectacularly. Even Valvrave had mediocre sales in general. The first volume sold something like 8k. The OP themes sold a lot more, but that didn't make a difference in the long term. Each subsequent volume of the anime increasingly fell, with the final average for both seasons settling around 4k. If we are going to be speculating about this here, then the best case scenario for Cross Ange is likely to follow a similar downward pattern. Nothing compared to the sales of their actually successful productions from even just a few years ago, which have easily cleared 10k, 20k or 30k. Not to mention their recent success with Unicorn or Love Live, though I admit they each have special circumstances in their favor.
Controversy guarantees that people will talk about your show and, if they're curious enough, watch it for free. Fanservice does essentially the same, just with more primitive instincts at work. Not necessarily that they will actually pay a lot of money to collect it. Controversy is also a trait of limited value when it is almost all that a particular series has in its favor. Cross Ange doesn't seem like it has much of anything else of worth so far. I guess it could magically turn into a much better show in the future, but I am not going to bet on that. Like I said, this isn't just a matter of "Western PC" when there are also plenty of Japanese people who have said they think this is a bad show for their own reasons. I'd even say that if it had the same level of fanservice but lacked the controversy, it would be better received. Last edited by jroa on Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18182 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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And I can certainly understand that interpretation. However, others who have a high appreciation for fan service have commented that they do not see that scene in episode 1 as arousing, and as such a person myself, I agree with them. You're certainly within your right to be disgusted by the scene regardless, as that scene was certainly meant to be provocative, but when the alleged target audience is saying that a scene isn't what the non-target audience is claiming it to be, I don't think that's insignificant. And apparently I was in error about how I described that scene in the review. According to what I'm hearing from people who know the manga, she wasn't actually being "probed" (as in a body cavity search), she was being outfitted for the tail-like connections that the Para-Mail pilots can be seen hooking up in episode 2 (see picture below): 
Now, frankly, if this really was what was going on then the anime version did a piss-poor job of making that clear and can definitely be faulted for that. One could certainly also quibble about how it's entirely unrealistic to do that way something that would presumably involve delicate nerve connections. (Unless it doesn't actually have to directly connect to the spinal cord or is somehow automated in installing once in the flesh?) Details are definitely lacking there. |
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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I think Hope's preemptive warning was completely warranted. It is perhaps quite appropriate that she used the terminology of the "bad apple," because the proverb says that "one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch." This is something that we see play out often in internet forums. You have one or two bad apples, and their actions have a negative influence on others who might normally be on good behavior. Those others become more egregious in their own conduct due to the influence of the bad apple(s). Shutting that down as definitively as possible is good for everyone. At a minimum, it should remove the possibility of people being influenced in such a manner if more bad apples do pop up. In regard to Theron's review, I have two thoughts on this. First of all, I thank Theron for his honesty. I believe him when he said he spent a lot of time agonizing over the preparation of this review, since he probably knew he would get some blowback. I think his review is very honest. He's trying to walk a fine line of giving the show its proper due for whatever it manages to accomplish for its target audience without overtly praising the most objectionable content. Well, at least that's my take. I have to give him credit for that. Also, in response to some people's feelings about general hypocrisy in covering some of the controversial content in different anime, yes there is some inconsistency in how things get covered. I suppose in some ways that is just the nature of subjective reviews. We had a whole argument about this in another thread where I was complaining about the positive coverage of Kill la Kill compared to Akame ga Kill, despite some of KlK's very objectionable content (much of which also involved rape). I suppose the takeaway there was that some (non-hentai) shows can get away with very overt rape scenes, even ones played for titilation. So in that vein, perhaps Theron is standing on firmer ground in his analysis of Cross Ange's rape scenes than we might be willing to acknowledge. I could really go off on a whole different tangent here, because if I am being totally honest and allowing for self-reflection, I might be able to say that I am part of the hypocrisy too. I enjoyed Kill la Kill. I don't think I enjoyed it quite as much as a lot of other people, but I did enjoy it. Yet, as I said, it did have rape scenes that I think were played for titilation. At the same time, I do feel offense at the similar scenes in Cross Ange. I suppose I could just say it is a style thing. Maybe KlK was able to immunize itself in some way from real piercing criticism by appearing to be so ridiculous and over-the-top that it could get away with things other anime couldn't. So there's that. At the same time though, maybe a show like Cross Ange will force me to re-evaluate my thoughts on a show like KlK. Maybe I was being too soft on KlK, because it was so stylish and bouncy and whatnot. So yea, trying to be as self-critical as I possibly can be, I could consider that my aversion to Cross Ange is not fair and I'm just being hypocritical like I claimed other people were in the AgK thread. Then there's my second thought on this. That thought is maybe more of a hyper analysis of what is happening in Cross Ange, and it's based on what some of the previous posters said about the idea that sexual violation is used in Cross Ange to reform the protagonist. Perhaps there is something about that which is making me more uncomfortable than what I have seen in other shows. For example, in KlK the sexual violation against Satsuki (mainly) and Ryuko (partially) was played more as an attempt to corrupt, dominate or control them. (There was of course that separate scene with Takarada that I won't go into again, but yea that was used for joke purposes.) Maybe it's easier for me to get over that. I mean, yea I was still pretty uncomfortable during those scenes while I was watching KlK, but not in the same way that I feel with Cross Ange. You could also look at the recent controversy over SAO2, where I was complaining a lot about the scene where Sinon is almost raped, but that also feels different. Again, that didn't involve the rape being used to reform the female character and essentially improve her in some way. I don't know if anyone has a bunch of examples of other shows where rape was used in that manner (other than hentai). I.e., the female lead is a terrible person, and she needs to be broken down to be reformed, and sexual violation is part of that process of breaking her down. Maybe that's really rare outside of hentai, and this show is bridging the gap a bit more than normal between more hard core hentai fantasies and regular shows. Well, that's a very long-winded analysis. tl;dnr I give Theron credit for attempting to be as fair as possible to this show. I think a lot of people, including myself, might be somewhat hypocritical in our analysis of this show. But, I also think there is a good chance that there is something distinctly different about Cross Ange that deserves the more harsh critique. |
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mangamuscle
Posts: 2658 Location: Mexico |
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jroa's post looks to me like someone who vehemently wants Cross Ange to fail. There has been anime I have vehemently wanted to fail *cough* Toriko *cough* but I will never understand the mindset where people go into forums to try to convince people to "move along, nothing to see here".
Of course CD sales are independent from DVD/BD sales, but they do provide free publicity for the series. Of course controversy in itself is not enough to sell a series, but the stalker numbers provide a pretty good estimate of the kind of sales are to be expected. Of course stalker numbers will change as the plot unfolds and even the last estimate can be 50% under or overestimated, but I think it is safe to say Cross Ange is far from being a total fluke.
It reminds me of the time when Ranma 1/2 was broadcast on TV over here a decade ago, they censored the boobies in such a way that people thought something else was going on. In both cases is anybodies guess whether that was the original intention or an unintended effect.
If fan and critics acclaimed Full Metal Alchemist (which is set in a parallel 19th century setting) can get away with it, then I see no reason why a setting which has both technology more advanced than ours (those mechs are the wet dream of many air force generals) and magic can get away with it. |
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Rederoin
 Posts: 1427 Location: Europa |
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Did I say that? You keep on misunderstanding what I say. This is pointless. |
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SilverTalon01
Posts: 2402 |
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So let me get this straight, you've only seen episode 1 and are just getting the rest from the review? Because the camera in Cross Ange does not linger on the pilots breasts or butts while they are being killed by dragons. You'd have to actually have watched it to realize that it like AOT doesn't have sexualized gruesome combat deaths, just gruesome ones. If you have only seen one episode, that is quite presumptuous I'd say to think you can already tell how the director likes to end episodes. The next episode also ends with a shocking scene. I bet you that we see more of those since he already did it twice in three episodes. And then if what Theron said is true and they were just fitting her for that cord to control the paramail, I don't even know if I think that scene is that trashy anymore... though perhaps makes it even more poorly done as I have no idea how you could come to that conclusion from only the anime. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5823 Location: Virginia, United States |
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Punishing everyone doesn't make sense. That is what bans are for. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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You have not been "punished" in any tangible way. You didn't have the permission to personally attack anyone before and it wasn't suddenly taken away from you now. Hope is saying "follow the rules, this thread will be watched closely because things are already getting crazy". Not unreasonable at all. The "something's been taken away from me, I'm being punished for something someone else did" makes zero sense. |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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A very little bit, I suppose. Usually it's the other way around and when more mainstream popular artists are used for the music, the CDs sometimes minimize the connection to the anime. And keep in mind that Mizuki Nana is super popular, so pretty much any CD she makes right now is guaranteed to sell at least moderately well.
Stalker estimates are rarely that much off from the estimates near release, or at least not for the decent to big sellers (if that 50% is only 1000-2000 copies, it's clearly not a huge hit; if something is projected to sell around 10k, it's rarely going to end up selling 15k or only 5k). It's usually the ones that are clearly going to be big hits and are in the top ranks for long periods of time that are off by a lot due to a quirk of how the point system works. I know some things recently (like Amazon-exclusive versions of discs) have made Stalker a bit less accurate in some cases, but it's not that unreliable. You can't use Stalker estimates from the first few weeks a show comes out. Shows usually taper off at some point, especially after the first two weeks. Using those early numbers are what get people to think that Attack on Titan was going to sell over 100k. This is less of an issue for original anime, since fans of existing works are what usually account for preorders in the first week or two which is often before the show has aired, but it still applies to some degree. Now, sometimes while a show is airing there can suddenly be a spike in preorders due to events in the show. This pretty much never happens right at the end (I'm not aware of any such spikes happening within the last 2 or 3 episodes, but there may be one or two), but it's entirely possible it could happen in the next few weeks. I think the shows that sell 30k+ always or almost always show those indications within the first few episodes, but I think it's a bit more common for shows to make those jumps on the lower end, where a 3-10k jump is a massive change in prospects. And some shows see spikes when event tickets are announced. If Cross Ange gets one, you'll likely see a huge spike for that, but it probably won't benefit the other volumes much. |
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msgundam2
 Posts: 271 Location: Indiana USA |
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I like this show.
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ryanvamp
Posts: 416 |
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I applaud you for making this post. I don't know about the others complaining, but this is EXACTLY what I was asking of the reviewers. Forum users/visitors & reviewers might disagree on a lot of things, and that's perfectly fine. I dare say it's even healthy if it leads to interesting discussions. But just like not every user will post something constructive and intelligently structured, not every reviewer will be exempt of falling in the trap of being "too" subjective about what they're saying and how. Contrary to a regular viewer watching some anime streamed by himself, you could say a reviewer has to always keep his/her bias as controlled as possible, because afterwards the written analysis will have to adress several kinds of individuals. I completely agree on the Akame ga Kill vs KLK comparison and how both are regarded. I also didn't want to minimize your whole argument and therefore I included the part in which you play with the hypothesis that indeed Cross Ange truly has content that is presented in a way that you find personally offensive which also leads to a bad reception of the material. And I have nothing to say about that except that it's quite understandable. I guess anime is a very tricky medium; there are TONS of series that would make this debate endless and what's most important IMO is to admit that the show might not be targeted at people who enjoy "women's suffering" just like I hope shoujo smut isn't read by women who approve of the rampant unappropiate story beats going on in them. I mean I doubt most girls find truly acceptable something like "submissive girl who ends up falling in love with a violent asshole that forces himself on her". |
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