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Hey, Answerman! [2006-10-27]


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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:15 pm Reply with quote
garylisk wrote:

Whoa, step back, who said anything like that?


OK, so then why are you trying to call into question what "professional" means? Why would it even matter? You are not a professional, the word's meaning is not subjective, but you seem to be saying otherwise.

Quote:


I rather enjoy the dubs for: Cowboy Bebop, Goldenboy, Tenchi Muyo, Most any Miyazaki film, Akira (both times, atually), Burn-Up, FLCL - I could keep going.

You have apparently had a lot of nasty run-ins with fansub translators to sit here and make these assumptions about me from one post. If I hadn't mentioned the fact of being one, and instead just claimed to be a fan - what then? Are fans who prefer the original dialogue also predictable and tiresome? Because that's what I am - The fact that I translate has nothing to do with it, and I preferred it in Japanese way before I knew any of the language.


What then? Then I'd assume you're yet another one of these people that makes patently untrue sweeping generalizations like this:

The dub world is apparently barely ready for good acting. (Which is another thing that made me laugh from this column - the big defense of dub VA's! Most of them are talentless, and that's a big reason why they are dubbing anime. And if they are not talentless, then the director is REALLY doing something wrong. But hey, I always know that if I want to hear some totally emotionless script reading, I can watch an anime dub.)

The fact that you're a fansub translator just adds fuel to that fire. You probably don't really watch a lot of recent dubs. Everything you quoted is fairly old, with the exception of the Miyazaki dubs, and there are a hell of a lot of dubs out there right now that are easily better than some of the ones you listed. And yet, "most dub VAs are talentless", and if you want "emotionless script reading you can watch an anime dub". Your statements are totally inconsistant.

Not to mention arrogant. Tell me, what qualifies you to make sweeping statements like that about anime voice acting? Saying "i didn't like this dub" is one thing, but unless you're taking master classes on voice acting or have a background in performance, I sincerely doubt you're qualified to make the kind of statements you're making about the entire profession and the performance level of an entire genre.

Quote:

Problem is, we probably have each other figured totally wrong. Most assumptions you just made about me were incorrect.


Maybe. I can only work with what you wrote here.

Quote:

But I only made one assumption about you, and apparently it was right, at least a bit.

But I can't blame you. In your position, you probably hear it all, and get pretty sick of it.


To be frank, I don't even know why you said that in the first place. Nothing in my recent column was "pompous". Generally I know when I'm being arrogant or whatever, and that column was pretty innocuous.

Also, if bothering to debate the negative garbage you spewed about both about the dub industry and me personally is being "defensive" then yeah, I guess I'm pretty defensive! I suppose you'd rather I totally ignore you, right?
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Richard J.



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 3367
Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:04 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
garylisk wrote:
But I only made one assumption about you, and apparently it was right, at least a bit.

But I can't blame you. In your position, you probably hear it all, and get pretty sick of it.


To be frank, I don't even know why you said that in the first place. Nothing in my recent column was "pompous". Generally I know when I'm being arrogant or whatever, and that column was pretty innocuous.
I know why he called you "pompous" Zac. You didn't parrot his opinion. Rolling Eyes

Personally, I think this was one of your gentler columns. If I'd been writing replies, I know I would have hammered that first one about the dub actors. (I have complaints about dubs but good grief, that was an insulting question.)

These people put in a lot of time and energy creating an English language performance of people's favorite series and, for some, this is the ONLY performance they have listened to and intend to listen to. They work to try and provide fans with something and there are a lot of fans, myself included, who really appreciate that.

I know that dubs sometimes have flaws, but rather than insult them and those that work on them as "talentless," maybe we should take a few moments and actually think about just how hard it is to do the job.

English VAs deserve just as much respect as the Japanese VAs because they are trying to do a job that is very difficult and most of them do want to make the fans happy. Anyone who thinks they're doing this for the money is insane. Voice acting doesn't pay hardly anything. Most US VAs have second jobs unless they're getting work constantly.

Virtually all of my complaints about dubs come from technical questions of translation and scripting. I rarely have a bad thing to say about a performance because I refuse to just write someone off as terrible without giving them a fair shot. Are their voices different from the Japanese? Sure. Does that make them automatically inferior? No, it doesn't.

Zac, you wrote a good column and I thought your responses this go around, even to the flake, were very even-tempered.

Best kitten yet. Cool
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sunflower



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1080
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:07 pm Reply with quote
garylisk wrote:
They say "Speak with authority, and you will be believed." Sad but true.


Sorry but this really made me laugh, especially after following this thread. Speak with authority here and 50 people jump out from behind trees to tell you exactly why you're wrong. ;D
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MorwenLaicoriel



Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 1617
Location: Colorado
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:45 am Reply with quote
Quote:


These people put in a lot of time and energy creating an English language performance of people's favorite series and, for some, this is the ONLY performance they have listened to and intend to listen to. They work to try and provide fans with something and there are a lot of fans, myself included, who really appreciate that.

I know that dubs sometimes have flaws, but rather than insult them and those that work on them as "talentless," maybe we should take a few moments and actually think about just how hard it is to do the job.

English VAs deserve just as much respect as the Japanese VAs because they are trying to do a job that is very difficult and most of them do want to make the fans happy. Anyone who thinks they're doing this for the money is insane. Voice acting doesn't pay hardly anything. Most US VAs have second jobs unless they're getting work constantly.

Virtually all of my complaints about dubs come from technical questions of translation and scripting. I rarely have a bad thing to say about a performance because I refuse to just write someone off as terrible without giving them a fair shot. Are their voices different from the Japanese? Sure. Does that make them automatically inferior? No, it doesn't.


I agree. Even though I haven't had a chance to really meet with or talk with very many voice actors, the times I DO get to see them at cons, or read interviews, or listen to podcasts, and various other stuff....part of it may be them simply "doing their jobs", but...this is *not* an industry you go into if you want to be rich, really. These actors are doing this because they LOVE acting. And many of them, over time, have become fans of anime as well. (Would Vic Mignogna actually create a fan film if he wasn't crazy for FMA? Would Kyle Hebert dedicate a podcast to this sort of thing if he wasn't into it?) To act as though the only talented actors are living in mansions up in Hollywood is misguided. Luci Christian is obviously a better actress than Paris Hilton.
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Zalis116
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Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 6867
Location: Kazune City
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:13 am Reply with quote
Garylisk wrote:
The rant this time was ridiculous. It hits home for me because I am one of those fan translators that do such an "unprofessional" job by leaving honorifics in a translation and such.
Zac wrote:
You're a little confused. "Professional" means you get paid to do what you do and you do it for a living.
I don't think payment was ever the issue here--consider this definition that a quick search yielded:
Quote:
Professional: applied to describe a person (or work of such a person) with the following attributes: service orientation, making expertise available to others, based on a distinctive body of knowledge and skills underpinned by abilities and values, autonomy in performing working within defined boundaries, public recognition of the authority of the practitioner by virtue of working to ethical standards and being accountable.
If we set aside the general illegality of fansubs, I think many fansubbers could be considered "professional" under this definition, which doesn't say anything about "receives money for the work in question." The professional-unprofessional distinction being applied in the rant is that "professional" = "in accordance with the styles, standards, and conventions of North American DVD releases," and "unprofessional"="Fitting the styles, standards, and conventions accepted by the community that creates and views fansubs," especially where these characteristics relate to honorifics and Japanese words left in the translation.

And honestly, I've seen many fansubs that could be considered "professional," (Paranoia Agent, for example, where the fansubs took the time to actually explain some things that would've been known to the Japanese viewers, while the DVDs were content to leave the audience in the dark) as well as DVDs that could be considered "unprofessional" due to timing errors, editing errors, and translation that obscures meaning in the name of accessibility. Riddle me this, Batman:

In Kamichu!, the line, "What kind of calligraphy would you like write?" appears in:
A) a bad fansub
B) an HK bootleg
C) the official Geneon DVD
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toomanyalts



Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 115
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:20 pm Reply with quote
[quote="Zalis116
In Kamichu!, the line, "What kind of calligraphy would you like write?" appears in:
A) a bad fansub
B) an HK bootleg
C) the official Geneon DVD[/quote]

Um that is actually a valid question. There is Indian, Islamic, Western, East Asian, Tibetan. Each of these has further types.
But I doubt the question was the issue you were raising.

Btw even Hollywood closed captioning of big budget blockbusters sometimes a small word can be left off. It even happens in major print newspapers along with bestselling books by incredibly famous authors.


By the way a HK bootleg will translate the line of dialog such as "being attacked from behind" as "coming up the butt".

Also bad fansubs often leave out things such as a catchphrase for instance Naruto's. Believe it is about as close as you can get to the Japanese word he babbles nearly every sentence.

Japanese va work often isn't that good in a lot of series if you actually know Japanese. Only the long running shows where the vas are contracted for long periods of time are going to do the lines together. Most of the anime va work is done like they do it in the states.

Often times if you think an English dub was bad guess what that Japanese voice work wasn't any better. They model the English dub after the Japanese performance. Naruto is a brat not some mature sounding shrimp. He is meant to be annoying.

Edward Elric was meant to be angry. Vic captured the spirit of Ed from the anime and manga.
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Wakaiba



Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:35 pm Reply with quote
"-San" often has an english equivilent of "Mr." and "Mrs.". What is this of no way to translate honorifics?
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HitokiriShadow



Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 6251
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:23 pm Reply with quote
Wakaiba wrote:
"-San" often has an english equivilent of "Mr." and "Mrs.". What is this of no way to translate honorifics?


In some cases, that works. Usually it doesn't. "Mr." and "Mrs." tend to be used only by adults who don't know each other very well or in formal (i.e. business) situations. "-san" can be used for people you are much more familiar with. Friends refer to each other with the "-san" all the time. Friends don't usually address each other as Mr. or Mrs. in english.
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Wolverine Princess



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1100
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:45 pm Reply with quote
toomanyalts wrote:
Zalis116 wrote:

In Kamichu!, the line, "What kind of calligraphy would you like write?" appears in:
A) a bad fansub
B) an HK bootleg
C) the official Geneon DVD


Um that is actually a valid question. There is Indian, Islamic, Western, East Asian, Tibetan. Each of these has further types. Each of these has further types.

The omission of the word "to" was the issue he was trying to convey, not the question itself.
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