Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2006-11-03]
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Tenchi
 Posts: 4469 Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer. |
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I thought you swore that you'd never buy anything Final Fantasy again, after being suckered into playing the sequel to Final Fantasy VII?
Or is your lifetime boycott strictly limited to FFVII spin-offs? |
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Ryusui
 Posts: 461 |
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I believe that not everything can be translated satisfactorily. In those cases, names of weapons, attacks and the like can be safely left in Japanese. Bleach, for instance, uses an appropriate mix of English translation and original Japanese, with explanations worked into the dialogue when necessary.
On the other side of things, it infuriates me to no end to read crap like Tokyopop's translation of .hack//Legend of the Twilight Bracelet and Dark Horse's work (or lack thereof) on Trigun and Trigun Maximum, which are positively leaden with pointless bits of "fanboy-talk" of the kind I've learned to dread in fansubs. I know a fair bit of Japanese, so it's not an impediment to understanding, but it's a serious impediment to my enjoyment: the dialogue, which should be well-written, natural-sounding English, is instead a ponderous wreck of English grammar wrapped around thorny bits of Japanese vocabulary left in for no reason except that the translator assumed the target audience would understand "onii-chan" as anything more than senseless gibberish used inexplicably on every single page. (The literary equivalent of a shrapnel bomb, or at least its end result.) One more egregious example is a scene in Trigun Maximum, where the translator saw fit to wedge a paragraph-long explanation into the whitespace to excuse his use of the word "lolicon" in a sentence when "pedo" or equivalent would have worked just as well; less obtuse but no less annoying, and far more frequent, are references to "sempai", "Knives-sama" and the like, honorifics and bits of Japanese thrown about with no explanation. A fan of the Trigun anime will not get much of anything except bewilderment out of Dark Horse's translation of the manga; likewise, a fan of the .hack franchise as released by Bandai will find Tokyopop's grotesquely ill-researched take on the manga and novels almost impenetrable. Speaking of the research issue, I have to confess I dabble a bit in video game fan translation. A long time ago, I picked a particular project as a test of my skills; I quit, though, when I learned that despite the game's cutesy appearance and lack of difficult text, it was quite the tough nut to crack. Months later, I realized the extent of my hypocrisy: I intended to translate the game without any understanding of the official English version of its source material. So I went back and gave it another try, this time with knowledge of the proper English names and terminology. Nine months afterward, my atonement is nearly complete: I have created what I deem to be a beta version of a complete translation of the game. If anyone wants to give it a look-over and help me test it, feel free to PM me. |
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Nermal
 Posts: 223 Location: I was made to hit in America |
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A few years ago, I too was 100% pro fansub and didn't really care for the likes of ADV or Funimation, mostly because of the following:
1) I felt that anime dvds were expensive compared to what I thought was a standard dvd price, so I didn't want to buy them if I could get them somehow for free. 2) I'm not a big fan of dubs (yes, especially when dealing with Kansai dialect), so my usual thought was "oh great, they're going to ruin my favorite anime." 3) If the series was licensed, it was harder to obtain if my preferred subbing group dropped the project. Now I see things a bit differently; if I hear of a series getting licensed (like Chevalier or Bobobo  ) my thoughts are "sweet...now I can buy the real ones, watch it on the big tv in the living room, the boxes will be pretty, and I'm supporting the anime industry here." I like collecting things and having something to look forward to, and I guess it also helps that I have an income these days. I still usually watch the dvds with Japanese audio and Eng subs, although I usually listen to 5 minutes of the dub for fun or to make myself go crazy (Kitsune...hah).
I am loving that cat with the headphones; it went perfectly with the Halcali song I was listening to at the moment. Regarding the rant, ok everyone has a different take on translating. Yay the end. I'm so ready for the next topic 
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rob_pait
Posts: 5 |
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The article was spot on about xenophobia in Japan. I once had the opportunity to speak to an American born Tokyo U professor. This was back when I was a japanophile and thought it would be great to go to Tokyo U. He largely convinced me it was a bad idea due to the issues I would face there (one particularly humorous story he told was about a time he went into a student lounge and saw a sign that read "appartment for rent: no dogs or foreigners").
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ichido reichan
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Silly humans!! all these years reading manga and anime and still you dont realize that Rumiko Takahashi SUCKS on ending stories that she has taken and used every single trick on the book, and you guys (no matter what generation you belong) are still falling in the same ending she pulls on all her series "And we will keep moving on in life and see what happens"
If a little of history on her works can help you understand why you felt betrayed with the ending on Inu-yasha, why don't you take a look at the other work's endings? I won't call this a spoiler because all the endings are the same: -Mermaid scar/mermaids forest: the immortal mermaid flesh eater couple keep moving on the road to see what's life have for them, they are not boyfriend and girlfriend just yet but they will see. -Urisei Yatsura: at the very end, ataru does not tell Lum that she loves her, instead he said "I will never forget" and the show ends with the promise that "they will never forget the memories of youth and they will create a thousand more" that you won't see because the show's end is at episode 200 after 6 movies, 7 specials etc etc... -Ranma 1/2: Ranma is cured and he tells akane that he cares (not love) about her, after a joke wedding that ends up being a mock party, they keep going to school and all the girls in the cast actually are glad that Ranma didn't marry, so everyone ends up going to school next day and literally at the end they say "We will wait for the future to see what happens" after 3 movies, 9 specials and 180 something episodes And all the rest of her works always end up in some sort of "open ending" to the public without giving away the fact that "possibly" the characters can fall in love in the future, I haven't seen "Maison Ikkoku" just yet, but I doubt it has a definite ending. I used to be a fan of rumiko's works but I decided to pass up Inu yasha because it looks a bit cartoony to me, not that her other works aren't cartoony enough, but with urisei yatsura and ranma 1/2 I was satisfied, now that I know that the ending of Inu yasha is lackluster, there is no reason to me to go on a show so incredibly big that will not take you anywhere. that is so "Rumiko" why do you think she is the best paying mangaka in the world? she can sell you a story that will not end, will never end.... |
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Swissman
Posts: 768 Location: Switzerland |
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Well, those stories have always been constructed to have a basic premise and then prolong the series by just adding stand-alone episodes via reset button (there's no real time flow over the episodes, most things start back from zero). It wouldn't make sense to add a final plot just to finish those series with a definite end like characters graduating or having children. It just wouldn't fit to the rest.
Way wrong. In contrast to UY or Ranma, Maison Ikkoku has an very definite ending. By the time you get to the end of the story, you know exactly how you got there and why. |
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ACDragonMaster
 Posts: 405 |
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Haha, yes, G Gundam.  And so many of those names were changed/censored when it was aired in the US, too.
Aaand nitpicking on the rant, whee~
There's several things wrong with this point. First of all, "death god" is only a literal translation. A literal translation, not the, because "kami" has wonderful shades of meaning thanks to Japanese culture and western equivilants. Also, the word "shinigami" in Japanese alledgedly developed as a translation of the western concept of personified Death or the Grim Reaper. So in other words, if you're going to translate "shinigami", the official translation of "soul reaper" is contextually JUST as accurate as the literal "death god", if not more so! And that's not all. See, let's take a greater sampling of some of the terminology used in Bleach: zanpakutou, kidou, shunpo, taichou, fukutaichou, seireitei, shikai, bankai, jigokuchou. Do any of these have decent and usuable translations? Let's try: soul slayer, demon arts, flash step, captain, lieutenant, court of pure souls, release/initial release, full release, hell butterfly. ...gee, that's a lot that DOES translate. Maybe "shinigami" to "death god" might've been that 1 time out of 10 that there is NOT a translation? Because lookie here, we have 9 words that do, in fact, translate. And yes, this is going a bit far for an example, but the point remains that the argument is inherently faulty.
Not necessarily, but on the other hand, often times they are. Fans and fandoms can be remarkably dense and lacking in effort as far as really researching the context and understanding the language on a fluent level, as opposed to basically taking a purely textbook approach. It alternately amuses me and sends me up the wall at some of the blatent mistranslations I've seen of terminology in fandoms like Bleach. (e.g. can someone PLEASE tell me how the kanji for "zan" in "zanpakutou" and "Zangetsu" is allegedly supposed to mean "cut" and not "kill"? especially when the kanji that DOES mean "cut" doesn't even have the reading "zan"??) So y'know? While there certainly are good fan translations out there, I do not on a whole trust them, because frankly they do not have the greatest of track records.
Good for you. Now the next step is to actually listen to this Japanese language you apparently know so much about and simply hear the honorifics and terminology for yourself.
Yes, because everyone needs to lower their standards to match the masses, right? Answerman's Rant space in the column is, well, a rant space. People go there to rant. Get things off their chest. Is someone posting a rant REALLY going and bother the rest of fans? How do you know that the people going around calling everyone "chan" aren't the minority who're bothering everyone else? Oooor, maybe the rants actually have a point worth considering without throwing them out wholesale, hmmm?
...except for the fact that a lot of anime fans are surprisingly ignorant of BOTH Japanese language and culture, despite their belief to the contrary. Hence a lot of misstranslations in fan translations.
The subject wasn't about westernized or Americanizing, it was about translating, which is a lot more than just slapping together some literal meanings. I don't see how translating terminology as appropriate or necessary to the story is equivilant to "westernizing" something. |
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SoloButterfly
 Posts: 239 Location: Masaki Residence |
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Man, if that's what Akira was about, I would have enjoyed that movie a lot more. That email almost seemed more of a "Hey, I know answerman hates it when these type of emails arrive..let's see if I can make it to flake of the week!" 
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Shousetsuka
Posts: 25 Location: Nagoya, Japan |
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Final Fantasy XII is just addictive. And pretty. You can't blame yourself for that.
In response to the rant, I think it's funny, when I read Japanese manga. Sure, it's really stupid when you translate it, but it's also really stupid when you read it in Japanese. I think part of the novelty is that it IS in Japanese, and so it seems like a better name, but when you stop and think about it, the meaning is the same. Of course, all of this is irrelevant. From what I've seen, fans like it if you don't translate the names, so I'd like to think translation companies should give the fans what they want. Of course, there is a fine line keeping too many things the same, because everyone's understanding of Japanese isn't the same, and some are more annoyed by having notes in the back than others. I personally like for translators to translate sound effects; sure I know what they are already, but it's just a nice thing to do. But, to each his/her own, I suppose. And if you think the anime is racist, you should see some of the things they have in the stores. Sambo ain't dead for the Japanese, I can tell ya that. 
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angel_vez
Posts: 1 Location: Australia |
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wow... i can't actually believe that someone would ask that... but i guess they did what a ... actually, i don't think i should finish that sentence there heh XP |
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Steroid
 Posts: 329 Location: At home, where all good hikikomori should be |
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If you don't want to give out information, that's fine, but I don't think it's flaky to ask for it.
It's interesting that while Japan is "less progressive" in terms of racial awareness, meaning that more can be included in its anime, it's more progressive in terms of its sex and violence, which means that more can be included in anime. It's probably a contributor to the fandom that Japan is far less restrictive about what custom will let them show on TV. I can only hope the lesson is learned and we get more racial content on American TV. Evil is a tricky word, but I still don't like the companies. Indeed, I have more respect for the multinationals that make billions in profit, because almost universally they are involved with products where I don't care about quality. Exxon can sell gasoline to thousands of others without affecting my purchase. GM cars can be based on what's popular, I don't care. Anime is art. Yes, it's entertainment, but it's artful entertainment. And so there's an either-or decision involved: market to the intense fan or market to the casual fan. Sometimes you can satisfy both, e.g. put a sub and dub track on a DVD. More often you can't,e.g. leave in the honorifics or take them out. And the vast majority of the time, the decision goes to the casual fan. Never has a series been licensed and produced with every decision along the way made for the otaku. And we have very strict standards, so yes, I'm going to denounce such companies. But I like Diebold. |
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Crawly
Posts: 204 |
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I had to raise my eyebrows at it and wonder what it is Zac's been watching that he thinks America is in any way balanced in how it portrays anything other than straight and white. Honestly, all minorities are stereotyped to the point of racism in all forms of American entertainment, on the same level as they are in anime. Asians in particular have always been squinty-eyed and buck-toothed, wearing glasses and spouting off mathmatical equations like human calculators. African American men are gangsters with drugs and bling hanging all over them, with evil white cops bringing them down. Hispanics are ill-speaking, slutty dressing, uneducated poor inner city dwellers with evil white cops bringing them down. We're just as bad as the Japanese when it comes to stereotypes. |
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Steventheeunuch
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This isn't the right kind of racial content, though. Racial content is actual cultures and races of people accuratly portrayed and subsequently veiwed fairly as equals. What is happening a lot in Anime is "Well, French people like bread, and we know a few french words! That's all there is!". It's blatant stereotyping and in a more serious show, it's completely unnessecary and cheapens the entire package. Hell, even in comedy, it's generally not funny or tasteful, especially from Japan who have even less of an understanding of say, African American or Hispanic cultures (even with the Internet, they're still at most limited to Japanese written articles and wikipedia/equivilents which they may or may not actually want to accept).
You [i]what]/i]!? That's it, you're seriously not worth sullying my hands with. It's not as bad as say, children should be raped, because sure, contexts can be taken differently, but that's just ridiculous. |
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Cowboy Cadenza
Posts: 243 Location: Poughkeepsie, NY |
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I agree whole-heartedly. |
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linlinchan
Posts: 286 |
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I don't think that's a case of being "more progressive," but just having entirely different cultural standards upon which what is and is not appropriate for children to see is considered entirely different. There are things we can get away with showing that the Japanese cannot on TV. There is a strict code of what is and is not appropriate based on these entirely different standards. Partially or fully nude characters without ultra specific details might be considered alright for Japanese children, but for example, shows like South Park (or a real Japanese equivalent that kept the tone, language and content) would most likely not be able to be aired in Japan, even though we are able to see it dozens of times a week here in the US, both on cable and syndication. The actual content is more strictly monitored in some ways and things critical of for example, the government or various other state institutions are not generally allowed. Additionally, they do not have the right to parody companies, people and situations to the degree that Americans are, which means that a lot of the parody shows we watch (Daily Show, much of Comedy Central and Adult Swim programming,) would probably not be able to be shown there. |
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