Forum - View topicWhere do you draw the line on anime romances?
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extremeeXrement1
Posts: 23 |
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Yaoi: This is only one I genuinely refuse to watch. As a result I have no opinion on it. I'm a man, and it's not for me. I can't give an opinion on a genre if I've never seen it.
Yuri: I love yuri... overall, I think the genre suffers from mediocrity. However, then again, Revolutionary Girl Utena is my favorite anime period. So there's definitely great ones in the genre. I also find it cuter, and sexier. Makes for good fanservice. I try to think of het and yuri as equal, but come on... we all see things differently. Poly/harem ending: Well... I know what you're saying, "Oh, it's fake love, no man can love 5 women equally", well, possibly. However, I think anime polygamy is interesting. It's definitely wish fullfillment material. Plus, even if he doesn't love them equally, or at all... if he's there being with them and bones them all, then does it matter? As long as him and his harem are happy, it doesn't matter right? Incest: Uhhhh.... I mean, I'll watch it.... But I don't like it unless it's played strictly for comedy or fanservice. Yuri incest is hot, simply because I consider both of them to be fetishes. But incest between brothers and sisters is just gross. SisterXSister incest is less gross simply cause it's yuri, and Mother X Son is by far the most digusting. Adult/Loli: LoliXAdult is usually gross... Making it yuri makes it less gross, but still disturbing on an ideological level. LoliXLoli can be cute, but I find it much more enjoyable as a romantic friendship type thing than yuri. Now Loli X Shota.. well... childhood relationships in general don't really go far, so it's cute, but not something I'd care about so much. Unattractive: No ugly chicks, period. Magical Girlfriend: The first type of magical girlfriend is the intelligent and caring kind, such as Belldandy. This is unrealistic, because no woman in real life is that sweet. I mean, no Otaku dudes are so sexist. Real women can't compare to the Otaku ideals. But overall, Magical Girlfriend anime is harmless wish fulfillment but nothing to take seriously. Magical Girlfriend/Pet: The second type of magical girlfriend is the ultra-moefied "pet" girls. The ones like Chi from Chobits who's mind is more like a Pokemon than a person. Basically put a puppy or kittens mind in a female body (minus the gross aspects of that). It opperates under the theory that cuteness increases as brain cells decreases. Well, it can make for good comedy I guess. [EDIT: Added paragraph breaks for better readability. -TK] |
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Mr. Oshawott
 Posts: 6773 |
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I'm okay with any romance unless it's one involving an adult and a kid, particularly if they're of the opposite sex. I just don't see it faring tastefully when the latter has yet to learn how serious of a matter romance really is.
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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-My views could basically be summarized as follows: Is it well done and believable? Great. I'm on board. Is it gross, contrived, fetishistic crap? Ew. No. Let me go into specifics though...
-Yaoi: I think it's vitally important to distinguish here between Yaoi in execution and/or as a genre and Yaoi more generally meaning any sort of gay romance in principle. There are certainly plenty of valid reasons to avoid Yaoi as a genre. In execution I find it to be quite dubious and fetishistic. That said, there's no reason in principle to treat a gay romance as significantly different from a straight one. If your reasons for disliking Yaoi romance are literally "It's about gay men! And I'm a straight man!" you're a just bigot and a gross person. Well...either that or you aren't really talking about romance at all. You actually mean "Here's what appeals to my dick." -Yuri: As with Yaoi, there as so many valid criticisms to be made of Yuri in execution. Yuri-baiting via mere innuendo is bullshit. Too few shows are actually overt about it. Although going to the other extreme with gross sexual assault characters for laughs/titillation is far worse. In general, the fetishization of lesbians for the arousal of a straight audience is super gross and not okay. All that said though, there is actually a certain appeal to yuri. There's something nice about romances between girls which are free of a lot of the baggage associated with heterosexual romances and/or traditional masculinity (to some degree that applies to homosexual romance too although it tends to be less pronounced in execution if nothing else). I don't know. It's tricky, when a show is aimed at a straight audience, to find the line between that appeal (which I think is valid) and descending into gross fetishization. -Incest/Lolicon: As much as I'm tempted to dismiss these out of hand, my original rule does still technically apply. Show me a show that tackles these subjects in a believable, serious matter and I'll be on board. That said, this is almost never the case. I can think of literally one show that I've heard of that actually seems to fit this bill. 99.9% of the time this is just fetishy garbage. The best thing you can say about this stuff in execution is that it sometimes only seems based in desperate edginess and/or some still pretty horrible attitudes towards women. Buuuut sometimes it's just flagrant pedophilia too. Yikes. -Unattractive People: You know, dismissing romances between less conventionally attractive people seems weird to me to begin with because such romances can actually be really sweet. Attractive people hooking up? Okay, that's nice. But less attractive people? That can afford more room for the characters to really connect on more than a physical level. More importantly though, anyone who posts something like "No ugly chicks, period." is just the worst kind of person and should crawl back to whatever swamp he came from. -Magical Girlfriend: Yeah, this is dumb wish fulfillment and I have no desire to see it. It's basically harmless enough in principle though I guess? So long as it avoids a lot of the weird, gross pitfalls such shows often do. Although I suppose in execution they rarely do. Case in point: Magical "Pet" Girlfriend shows. Kinda would have thought that once someone realizes "Wow! This character is basically a pet you can bang" that would cause them to reject this genre. But apparently no. This is a perfect example of the point where more or less harmless wish fulfillment transitions to "You have seriously messed up attitudes toward women and relationships". |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7983 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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I've seen decent examples of all of the above and the only one that really bothered me is the creepy pedo bait type.
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kookykonata
Posts: 31 |
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With romantic comedies and stuff like that being one of my favorite genres, I generally don't have too much of a defined "red line". However, some things will force me to switch off the show and/or shun it forever.
Things like: Gratuitous Fanservice I don't mind the occasional panty shot or slight nudity in a show, but when that becomes the show's "trademark" (ex. High School DxD, KissxSis) I can't bear to sit through it. I came for the story and hijinks, not the hentai. Shows like Rosario x Vampire and Nisekoi are good examples of an acceptable amount of fanservice. Clear Ending Determined By First Episode I'm not saying that it's 100% bad, but when you can get that inkling as to what the ending is going to be like by the time the end of the first one or two episodes rolls around, it gets kind of boring. I do like to have some kind of mystery to it. Now there are some shows that pull it off so well you can't help but love it (i.e. Clannad series), but they are few in comparison to the rest. Tropes I can't stand the sheer amount of anime tropes in nearly every series I watch now a days. You need that one beach episode to break up the story, the same set of character personalities within the group, the "I like him, but does he like me" pit, and one of the worst ones, which is where they never hook up with anyone, even in the end of the show as to keep all of the watchers happy that the main character didn't "shack up" with the wrong mate. |
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Night fox
 Posts: 561 Location: Sweden |
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^ I agree with you completely. Most anime tropes are basically just fan service, where the trope in question is thrown into the story whenever it's convenient (and sometimes when it's not), and is of no real value to the development of characters or plot.
So, enough with the trope-orgies already! 
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3872 Location: New York state. |
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For the most part, I'm personally rather open-minded to what I can find for romance titles as I care more for the quality of the title and pairing in question than any discomfort I may experience from pairings that break social taboos or don't follow the typical heterosexual path.
Yaoi: Have nothing against homosexuality in anime. But the majority of titles I've been exposed to from the genre thus far dabble too heavily into melodramatic seme-uke trappings for me to care for them seriously. Yuri: Have had more instances where I could find quality titles among this bunch like Marimite, Simoun, the Adolescence of Utena movie and Aoi Hana. Granted I've seen a few subpar ones like Maria+Holic and Strawberry Panic. But, they were more tolerable for me than what the yaoi genre liked to expose me to. Harem Ending: One of two I least like more so for the fact the creators like to use it in too many instances as a cheap excuse to avoid having the male or female lead make a decision on choosing who they want to love, which I've seen milked in several of Masaki Kajishima's works. Incest- Koi Kaze's a title that proves that the taboo can be depicted in a tasteful and mature way if you have the right writers at work. Unfortunately, a number of titles love to exploit the taboo as a cheap excuse for perverted antics in an ecchi title (OniAi and KissxSis) or cheap melodrama (Yosuga no Sora and Angel Sanctuary). Adult/ Loli: While I don't mind age gap relationships in general, I do have to draw the line when it comes to the lolicon and shotacon crowds since no matter how well written it can be, the genres are still rather exploitative since kids younger than 13 are nowhere at a point in mental development where you could justifiably say that they know the full scope of the many problems that would arise from being taken advantage of by an adult. The only case of this trope I may be able to tolerate is the precocious crush, but would depend on how the series executes it. Unattractive: Could care less how the characters could look. If the relationship development is well written and the characters are likeable enough, then that is enough to engage me since I can care less for superficial tripe like one's physical appearance. Magical Girlfriend: While I've seen instances where this creates characters so perfect that they are rather bland such as with the mentioned Ah My Goddess, I've also seen titles that deconstruct or subvert the bland perfection and superpowered elements of this anime premise like Video Girl Ai, FLCL, Chobits and Elfen Lied. Last edited by Ggultra2764 on Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13224 |
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Everything is a trope. It's only a matter of if it's a trope you like or not. Yaoi: I don't mind it. I greatly enjoyed stuff like Loveless, Kyo Kara Mao, Yami no Matsuei and Free. Yuri: I'm not a fan. I actually like yaoi more, which I realise is odd for a straight male to say. I've watched my fair share of yuri titles and the romance aspect of them just weren't something I enjoyed. I don't even own a pair of yuri goggles so when it comes to more ambiguous shows (see the Euphonium thread) I tend to lean more towards the heterosexual interpretation. I get a lot of hate for that from certain members of the fandom and that certainly doesn't help warm me up to the genre either. "Men are disgusting and true, pure love can only exist between girls" is something I hear a lot and it's BS. I don't find yuri relationships inherently more interesting than straight ones either. That said I do appreciate shows that actually have a serious yuri subplot that isn't just fanbait/comic relief. Kanamemo had an openly lesbian couple who were even sexually active and didn't shy away from that. Kiniro Mosaic, while still using it as a source of comedy, does portray Aya's feelings for Yoko in a genuine way. Cross Ange also embraced same sex relations as more than just titilation. Stuff like that I can definitely get behind. Harem ending: As I said in the other thread, I'm against it because I'm an old fashioned sort. A guy should really be forced to choose one girl. If allowed to have them all, responsibility will be dispersed and you're likely to end up with a frivilous person who is just happy he can have sex with many girls and not get in trouble. Incest: I initially found it hot due to its taboo nature, but upon thinking about why it's a taboo at all I've come to the conclusion that there's little reason to ban it. Deformed kids? That only happens with generations of inbreeding. There's an increase in the chance a child will inherit a disorder, but it's still not 100%. Kids with unrelated parents can get the same problems anyways. Even then our population is over 7 billion, any potential dilution to the gene pool would hardly affect much. I only care for brother/sister, though. Adult/Loli: The precocious crush is one of my favourite tropes because I find it adorable. I don't think it should go further than that, though. If it did, then I'd look at it on a case by case basis. Many like to think that all children are little idiots who must be shielded from the world, but kids these days are a lot smarter than that. It is possible for a younger kid to be mature enough to fully grasp what it means to be in a sexual relationship. Lord knows there are plenty of stupid adults out there who don't understand such things, yet for some reason it's okay for them to have sex. So if the kid is mature enough, it's their decision. The adult should still know better, though. Unattractive: Are there really any actually unattractive anime characters? Usually even when a girl is described as being homely or plain she's still pretty cute. Magical Girlfriend: Certainly don't care for them, especially when they come out of nowhere and win the heart of the protagonist with zero effort, leaving the long suffering childhood friend out in the cold. Gender Bender: I want to see more titles where the guy-turned-girl falls for his male best friend. |
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Night fox
Posts: 561 Location: Sweden |
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@Vaisaga
I disagree with your nonchalant attitude that everything is a trope, although anime is certainly heading in that direction. Tropes are a result of imo inferior directors, writers, and character designers, who aren't being creative enough to come up with something original. Let's give that character white hair, and that one princess curls, because it fits their personalities, or that kind of crap. That way of thinking only creates generic characters, and I simply don't understand why it's so popular among fans. What happened to diversity, individuality, and free thinking? The possibilities of anime are endless, since you don't have to worry about realism, or on-site recording issues. So why are many anime series repeating what's already been done a hundred times!? |
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Darkmagick
 SubscriberPosts: 463 |
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I think you're mixing up tropes and clichés - a cliché is something that has been done a hundred times, and is frequently leaned on because it's been proved to work and the writer doesn't want to take risks. A trope is just an element of a story - or any other thing that might possibly be put into a work of fiction, like music or animation. A story without tropes cannot possibly exist - after tens of thousands of years of humans telling stories, pretty much anything you could think of from the general position of being a human being raised on Earth has been thought of. And if a story without tropes did exist, it would probably be very boring. I wouldn't even reject clichés out of hand, though they are easy to misuse. Clichés became as popular as they did for a reason. (I must admit, I'm a real sucker for well-executed battle shounen clichés.) In my opinion, the real challenge in making something good is to make use of tropes in a new and interesting way. (Or at least, "new" in that it hasn't been done well in a while - chances are someone has tried doing it that way at least once in the past thousand years or so.) |
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Night fox
Posts: 561 Location: Sweden |
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^ Feel free to call it by whatever technical term you like, and if you're not getting my point then just say so, and I will elaborate for you. If you don't see any issues with constant repetition of various tropes, or clichés, then that's fine too. It only shows that at least diversity in opinion still exist.
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Darkmagick
Subscriber Posts: 463 |
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I do get your point - it's one I'm sick of hearing. It's true the majority of anime - and fiction in general - is highly derivative, and a lot of the time it feels like it was made on autopilot. (In particular it feels like the recent rash of light novel adaptation announcements feel more and more like they're all the exact same story under different names, with a few exceptions.) But I feel the constant insistences on complete "original" works free of any sort of trope is ridiculous, and has nothing to do with real creativity. I mean, just by having a hero and a villain in your story you've probably added in about 20 tropes that are way more common than you think they are.
I tend to see that works that vocally claim to be completely "original" are one of two things: *Actually still full of tropes, just not the ones that are the creator's pet peeves. *An incomprehensible mess. Human beings are naturally influenced by the environment they were brought up in and the world around them. Even if you don't mean to, you can't help but apply that influence to any piece of fiction that you might create. The stories you've consumed - especially the ones you loved - will show their influence in your work. You can't help it. In my opinion, truly great works of fiction draw on the great works of the past in an intelligent and thoughtful manner. While there are many creators who I might say have a "unique" style, that style didn't come from nothing - what's unique is the way they chose to combine the various tropes they liked, were interested by, and were good at using to make something that could be called their own personal style. ...I should probably stop derailing this thread now. 
Last edited by Darkmagick on Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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This pretty much covers it.
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Night fox
Posts: 561 Location: Sweden |
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^ Ok, first I'd like to point out that some tropes a more elemental to a story than others. For example, having protagonists and antagonists is understandable since disagreement, and confrontation, is basic stuff (you either get along, or you don't). So even if a story is built around these basic tropes, let's call it the stem of a tree, it doesn't explain why so many stories end up on the same branch as they develop. I also distinguish between tropes that actually contribute to a plot, and tropes that nearly always are used as pure fan service.
From what I understand, you're saying that the fact that these tropes exist means that they can't be overused, and that there's no difference if a certain trope appears in 10% of all works (btw. is that common enough to call it a cliché?), or if it appears in one out of a thousand titles? To ignore this trend, and dismiss the subject out of hand, is a pretty blunt approach imo. Though, since you are a hardcore mecha fan, I can understand if you're not that bothered by repetition (such as 500 titles where a young, male, protagonist end up piloting an enormous humaoid robot). 
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That_Guy244
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I don't really care long as I find the characters interesting and it has a decent story with good character development.
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