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The Canon of Anime.


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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:19 pm Reply with quote
willag wrote:
It's like a bad addiction.


Hey, could be worse. Unlike most drugs compiling statistics is free and doesn't ruin your internal organs.
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Alan45
Village Elder



Joined: 25 Aug 2010
Posts: 9807
Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:19 pm Reply with quote
Ah, yes. But statistics do rot the brain. If you look at numbers and charts long enough you get this weird idea that they actually mean something. Then you start to find correlations. Shocked

The problem with a lot of this stuff is the underlying assumptions.
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Errinundra
Moderator


Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 6516
Location: Melbourne, Oz
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:18 am Reply with quote
willag wrote:
I guess the only thing I can say is... yay, statistics, yay, lists, yay, meaningless, time-wasting endeavors!...

... I have watched 44 of these shows. Of those 44, I rated:

9 as Masterpiece (10/10)
16 as Excellent (9/10)
13 as Very Good (8/10)
5 as Good (7/10)
1 as Decent (6/10)...


I love lists. Life is unbearable without lists.

Anyway, I've watched 65 out of the 80 shows. Razz

I rated:
12 as Masterpiece
12 as Excellent
17 as Very Good
11 as Good
10 as Decent
2 as So-so (Gurren Lagann & Redline)
1 as Not Very Good (Trigun)

Using your rating method, willag, I score Jose Cruz's list @ 515 out of a possible 800 (compared with your 379).

9 of my Masterpiece rated anime didn't make it: Comedy, House of Five Leaves, Hyouge Mono, Koi Kaze, Noir, Spice and Wolf, Spice and Wolf 2, The Tale of Princess Kaguya and Time of Eve (counting that only once). The omission that surprises me is Time of Eve.
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Alan45
Village Elder



Joined: 25 Aug 2010
Posts: 9807
Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:24 am Reply with quote
@errinundra

I, on the other hand completely glaze over when I see a list or a table. I guess it is something inherent in the individual.

I have a couple of problems with this approach to setting up a "Canon" list of anime. The first is the idea that watching a mass of anime makes you a better reviewer. The ability, or even the inclination to review, assess and evaluate shows is not specific to anime. If you have it viewing thirty to fifty shows should give you a good view of the medium. If you do not have it watching a thousand shows will not improve your assessments.

Secondly is the assumption that most people are approaching the criteria with the same understanding and putting the same amount of effort into arriving at the evaluation. In many cases it may not even be consistent from year to year from the same person.

Third is availability. A little know show may be highly evaluated by everyone who has watched it and should be better known. This system will miss such a show because it is not shown on enough lists.

TLDR: I think the basis of the list is flawed and statistics taken from the list are an example of spurious accuracy.
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DuelGundam2099



Joined: 07 Dec 2014
Posts: 533
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:13 am Reply with quote
Quote:
If you do not have it watching a thousand shows will not improve your assessments.

After a thousand it is extremely unlikely you don't have some sort of grasp.
Quote:
A little know show may be highly evaluated by everyone who has watched it and should be better known. This system will miss such a show because it is not shown on enough lists.

Pretty much this. At the very least we should have a larger sample size than just 50 people. We have plenty of western anime fans, we should find lists from people in Australia and Asian countries (not just Japan), otherwise this list is just what American and European fans think are "the best". As for what we have already.
Quote:
1. Puella Magi Madoka Magica

2/10
Quote:
2. Cowboy Bebop
64. Cowboy Bebop The Movie

8/10 and 9/10 respectively
Quote:
3. Spirited Away

6/10
Quote:
Neon Genesis Evangelion
The End of Evangelion
Evangelion: 2.0 You Can (Not) Advance

10/10, why separate them?
Quote:
10. Gurren Lagann

10/10
Quote:
10. Fate/Zero Second Season
34. Fate/Zero First Season

I do not rate eroge adaptions, if I did this would easily be a 1/10, Fate/ general is one of the worst franchises I have ever come across.
Quote:
12. Revolutionary Girl Utena

3/10
Quote:
14. Grave of the Fireflies

9/10
Quote:
15. Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood

8/10
Quote:
18. Princess Mononoke

8/10
Quote:
19. Trigun

8/10
Quote:
22. Akira

10/10
Quote:
24. Code Geass Lelouch Rebellion
35. Code Geass

Nice over sight. 8/10 for first series and 9/10 for R2
Quote:
31. FLCL

6/10
Quote:
35. Gunbuster

9/10
Quote:
38. Fullmetal Alchemist

6/10
Quote:
42. Death Note

10/10, top 4 of all time
Quote:
44. Tokyo Godfathers

10/10
Quote:
51. Princess Tutu

3/10
Quote:
57. Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind

10/10
Quote:
58. Blood+

10/10
Quote:
59. Black Lagoon: Second Barrage

4/10
Quote:
59. Paranoia Agent

4/10
Quote:
63. Full Metal Panic: Fumoffu?

8/10
Quote:
65. Moribito - Guardian of the Spirit

Currently watching, final score may range anywhere from 7 to 10, the production values help a lot.
Quote:
74. Elfen Lied

9/10
Quote:
76. Cardcaptor Sakura

5/10, would be lower if not for Kero though
Quote:
78. RahXephon

10/10


Never seen the others on that list although Monster, Nodame, and Planetes are in my backlog.
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getchman
Space Cowboy



Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 9117
Location: Bedford, NH
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:16 am Reply with quote
Fate/zero is not an eroge, it's a light novel
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Alan45
Village Elder



Joined: 25 Aug 2010
Posts: 9807
Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:46 pm Reply with quote
@DuelGundam2099
This is a good example of why I hate number or letter evaluations. Even if I thought your opinion meant something, your x/10 evaluations tell me nothing except that you as an individual liked or didn't like something. It provides no information as to the basis for your decision. The fact that you have a bias against the erotic tells me more than all of your evaluations put together.

This is also why we are not suppose to post lists.
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Touma



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2651
Location: Colorado, USA
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:58 pm Reply with quote
DuelGundam2099 wrote:
Eroge are pornographic light novels,

"Eroge" is a shortened form of "erotic game."
Visual novels are considered to be games, so I think that you probably meant that eroge are pornographic visual novels.

Light novels are not games and cannot be eroge.
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Crisha
Moderator


Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Posts: 4290
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:13 pm Reply with quote
Yes, folks, let's keep from posting all of our ratings for each of the shows on this list. Summarize all you want, but don't put lists without explanations. Also, let's calm down before this starts becoming a fighting match.

errinundra wrote:
I love lists. Life is unbearable without lists.

My Australian brotha' from anotha' motha'. What would I do without your wisdom, good looks, and amazing reviewing ability to help back me up against all the troglodytes on these forums?

*I'm looking at you, Alan, I'm looking at you.*

Wink

errinundra wrote:
Using your rating method, willag, I score Jose Cruz's list @ 515 out of a possible 800 (compared with your 379).

A better way to score would be out of the total maximum points you could receive from what you've seen.

willag: 379/440 = 86.1%
errinundra: 515/650 = 79.2%

Now, a safe assumption to be made is that my percentage is more likely to fall if I continued to watch more. For one thing, my odds of giving an 8 or lower is greater than 9 or 10. Additionally, if I've held out from watching about half of the shows on the list, then there may be an underlying reason for that. One being that I'm just not interested in it. I've seen several episodes of Eva, Trigun, Wolf's Rain, and Code Geass but never continued because they didn't interest me. I also know all of the spoilers now for those series. So the likelihood of me ranking a 9 or 10 goes down.

The 4 series I rated Masterpiece include The Twelve Kingdoms, Kill la Kill, Chihayafuru, and Kyousougiga. Between Kill la Kill and Gurren Lagann, I give the edge to GL for being around longer (and I find Simon's arc more emotionally impacting than anyone in KlK). Chihayafuru, while finding many fans of both genders, feels like it'd be up against greater odds being put on the list that has few shoujo/josei titles on it (I'm extremely pleased Princess Tutu made it on the list - it's one of those gems that would be underrated without the big word of mouth for it on the internet). And Kyousougiga is one of those shows that I don't think many people watched.

Given the types of genres that show up often on the list, I could easily see Time of Eve, Psycho-Pass, or From the New World end up on there. I think one of the underrated gems that would be worthy to go up on the list is Dennou Coil. While it has an English release, the extra steps it would take to be able to watch the R4 release is still enough of a hurdle to possibly prevent many from watching it. I don't know how many of the 49 ronin chosen from this list have gone the fansub route.


Last edited by Crisha on Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:18 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Alan45
Village Elder



Joined: 25 Aug 2010
Posts: 9807
Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:13 pm Reply with quote
@willag
I confess, I'm completely unable to get anything from lists, tables, graphs or extended statistics. They were the bane of my existence back when I worked. Maybe I should apply for disability status on that basis. Nah, they would probably want to know in which percentile I stood with reference to those abilities.

DuelGundam2099 wrote:
Quote:
I could go in depth with all of them, but that would take at least a couple of hours.

Don't bother, I wasn't commenting on the content of your list, just on the uselessness of such un annotated lists. (You have already told me enough of your basis for evaluation in any case.)
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar


Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 16935
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:23 pm Reply with quote
And just like that the bickering high school argument is gone. Huzzah! And since you love lists and analytical projects so much my spirited and beautiful comrade in arms (not sucking up at all) you could always translate over my MAL list to my MyAnn list for me lol.
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 1091
Location: LA, Baby!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:29 pm Reply with quote
I can see why my posts were taken down, and I do apologize for anything on my behalf. I tried to keep it short, though. Forgive me if I wasted your time. m(_ _)m

Also, thank you, Alan45, for writing a better counter-argument than I could have in a million years. You're awesome. Really. You are. Smile
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Animegomaniac



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 4070
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:00 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
I think you can run into taste problems, the ones on that list I have watched I can attest to being great, but a number of them also simply do not interest myself. Recently I think a top anime list will often be best when in regard to certain groups. I can say that from the 600 series (movies/sequels/OVAs) I have currently seen in full, of the 17 I have given a masterpiece rating of and match this list I have only Madoka, Bunny Drop, and Bakemonogatari. Maybe I have terrible taste though, after all I also gave that rating to the Inukami movie.


I can call any work a "masterpiece" and still not like it just as much as loving really bad pieces of art. But the thing is, I don't. I go by how much I enjoy a work; If I feel I have to ff through any show, not naming any names here, then even if I can call it technically well done, it's not very entertaining to me. It's a quality so subjective, it's not even worth considering numerically. So I use a star system, ha, irony...

I consider anime DVDs from 1 to five stars qualitatively; Five star shows are the ones I can rewatch anytime in either language. Four star are for flawed but still fun and sub only shows, there's some bias for you; When judging an image, I like to judge the image. Three star shows are middling and dub only shows. Two are the ones that outright bore me or irritate me and one star are the shows that actually hurt me to watch.

Streaming is strictly watch/don't watch; There's no point in being picky when it's hanging like ripened fruit, is it?

Is this system any good? It works for me as anime is a medium and not a genre. A good horror show or comedy is not necessarily a good work, mostly by its own genre faults. A five star work in comedy for me, Kuroda's Best Student Council or Battle Athletes Victory, wouldn't even scratch most people's lists, unfortunately.

Anyway, to sum this up: Even averaging personal tastes is a meaningless exercise without setting some guidelines in the prep stages. Watching the best manipulative drama when you're unknowingly in the mood for a stupid action piece? It's not going to come off very well, right?

Worse, when you're only in the medium for shounen material in the first place? You may still have seen a lot of shows, it doesn't mean your perspective is any broader.
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DuelGundam2099



Joined: 07 Dec 2014
Posts: 533
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:17 pm Reply with quote
Here is an idea: Lets also get some lists from /a/, /m/, and AniDB.net, more variety and people. Plus why stop at 80 when we can go for 100?
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14084
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:45 pm Reply with quote
DuelGundam2099 wrote:
Here is an idea: Lets also get some lists from /a/, /m/, and AniDB.net, more variety and people.


I wouldn't trust /a/ to accurately pee into a urinal, let alone accurately assess the quality of anime that they watch.

And /m/ is even worse; have you seen the titles they worship over there? You don't want a zillion super robot shows (most of them aimed at young children or manchildren, and almost all of them subpar) to contaminate your aggregate list, do you?

How would you know that 4chan users weren't trolling you when they made their lists (that you would have to ask them to make)?

Anidb could be incorporated though. Their user review system, despite its weird format and structural limitations, is pretty neat and generates tonnes of interesting statistics.

DuelGundam2099 wrote:
Plus why stop at 80 when we can go for 100?


Jose Cruz had a good reason to stop at 80. I suppose it could reasonably be larger if Anidb were incorporated in some way.

Ultimately, one hundred is just an arbitrary number.
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