Forum - View topic"Badass": Does it mean anything?
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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Note: Once again, this is less anime-specific and more applying to the media in general.
So I've noticed that when it comes to fandoms, the characters that tend to gain the biggest followings are those that kick butt, so to say. I also notice that characters that gain the biggest hatedoms are those that are perceived to be weak or "whiny". Compare our Kaminas to our Shinjis. There is no doubt that most people will tend to gravitate towards the muscly and loud Kamina than the effeminate and quiet Shinji. Why is that? 1) Wish-fulfillment Let's not lie to ourselves. The media is a place for people to escape to. Men in particular are attracted towards characters with great physical strength. It doesn't matter who they are, what their personalities are, or even what they do; if they can falcon punch, the character will be adored unconditionally. In contrast, if a character shows *gasp* emotions and/or weakness, they will be scorned and hated. But why? Well... 2) Gender Roles In society, men are expected to be stronger and women are expected to be more emotional. Throughout the media and from childhood, men are taught that physical strength is something to be valued, and that if they cannot achieve that, they are worthless. Real men kick ass, and those who don't are sissies to be scorned and hated. In reverse, women are taught that kicking butt is unfeminine, and therefore bad. Do you think characters such as Kirito or Tatsuya Shiba would have half the fanboys they do if they were women? I think not. Likewise, I think more people would be forgiving of Shinji if Gainax went through with their initial plans of having him be female. Now that we got that out of the way, what does "badass" mean, anyway? In my opinion, nothing. "Badass" is not a personality trait, much in the same way that "sexy" and "crazy" are not personality traits. It is a concept that is based on superficial qualities, and in itself is so subjective that you can declare anyone or anything to be "badass". That is not to say that all "badass" characters have to be written badly. Two such characters I enjoy watching are Claire Stanfield from Baccano and, for a non-anime example, Garnet from Steven Universe. But here's the thing- they were both well-rounded characters with unique motivations and were given something to do besides beat stuff up. Claire is a romantic who just so happens to think he is God, while Garnet develops from a stoic, no-nonsense leader to a more talkative and emotional individual. So, what do you think? Does the idea of badass mean anything to you? Share with me! 
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Saffire
 Posts: 1255 Location: Iowa, USA |
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Though I think your explanations are largely true to the world at large (the concept is pretty clearly tied to wish-fulfillment, for example), I think anime fandom is pretty subversive in regards to what it regards as "badass". Utena, Erza, Mikasa, Revy, Haruka/Uranus...anime is rife with "badass" women that fans, male or female, absolutely love. Maybe I'm reading you wrong but you seem to be implying that only men are ever popular badasses. And many of those characters are also very emotional as well. It's certainly possible to have an emotional/weak badass if the character writing is good enough.
I also don't think anyone has ever used badass as a personality trait. It's more of a character archetype than anything. |
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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Hmm...you actually brought up another great point. In recent years, we're starting to see a lot more awesome women in the media. However, the amount of badass female characters who have fanbases are NOWHERE near those of their male counterparts. And then, of course, we have THIS trope:
Real Women Never Wear Dresses This is an attitude that I think has done more to hurt women in the media than help them. Its ideology is that if a female character behaves in a way that is seen as feminine, that makes them weak compared to a female character who acts masculine. For example, we'll compare Homura and Madoka. I think both are amazingly well-written, but it's obvious that the stoic Homura has the bigger fan following than the fragile Madoka. The thing about "badass" in general that it tends to be used in place of actual personality by amateur authors. They think that the more awesome they can make their Stu, the better written they are. Like I said, I don't normally mind badass. It's sort of like pepper: something to spice up your lead, but shouldn't be the main ingredient. |
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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I don't think the love of Kamina and hate of Shinji is purely due to some machismo wish fulfillment. Well-rounded male characters (and I think the best male characters) have emotions and express their fears and doubts. Compare Kirito from SAO season 1 to Kirito from SAO season 2. He is a total badass in both seasons, but in season 2 he becomes much more emotional and we see him expressing his doubts and fears about himself much more. In my opinion, Kirito from season 2 is far superior to Kirito from season 1. However, he is still a badass.
The difference with Shinji is that he spends a significant amount of time wallowing in his emo and self-loathing. We, the audience, watch a show or movie in order to escape our mundane lives and experience things from the perspective of the characters on the screen. We seek to identify with them and ideally share in their adventure. When a main character is intensely emo and self-loathing, such that a significant portion of their screen time is spent whining and whimpering, it is an extreme downer for the audience and forces us to share in the MC's depression. Normally, we don't watch media to become depressed. There are some exceptions obviously, if the show is specifically a show that is about depression or is designed with the purpose of making the audience depressed. However, when people watch an action-oriented show about space and giant robots and other fantastical things, they aren't looking to be depressed. Kirito never depressed me throughout any moment of SAO, even when he became emotional in the second season. He was always a character meant to inspire you, even if it was done to a fault in many instances (especially season 1). Yes, inspirational badasses tend to be the most popular characters, for good reason. Is there wish-fulfillment involved? Yes, usually. But it isn't just about some testosterone-fueled desire to be the "strongest in the world." It is usually about people wanting to connect with an inspirational character that makes them want to better themselves. |
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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@ChibiKangaroo
Admittedly, I do like Kamina to some degree. Brief his time on Gurren Lagann was, there was something enjoyable and charming about his hamminess and stupidity. However, I brought Kamina up specifically because of the difference between his reception and Simon's reception. Kamina was loved from the start due to his awesomeness, in contrast to Simon's derision. Simon only started to gain a fanbase when he achieved "awesomeness" in the fan's eyes. I am planning on watching Sword Art Online later this year, so I'll talk about that when I get to it. (General impression is that the first half is a harmless empowerment fantasy, but I've heard horror tales about Fairy Dance) Now, personally, I believe the problem with Shinji is less about his overall character and more about how the writers chose to handle him in the final third. I have no doubt that the original plan was for him to gain more confidence and eventually mature into a man. Of course, then Hideaki Anno went to therapy, and his real life problems leaked into the script, SO...yeah. I like Shinji, but the show handled him REALLY badly towards the end. Let's just agree that Shinji's Rebuild version. is a hell of a lot better than his TV counterpart. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Just as an FYI in case you didn't know, Season 1 includes both Aincrad and Fairy Dance. |
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FenixFiesta
Posts: 2581 |
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If we are going to talk about defining archetypes, simply being a great combatant is does not complete the title of "badass", something of a crude and uncivil nature also needs to be tied in the characterization such a characteristic of a fighter that is willing to resort to pragmatic methods to ensure victory.
Simply being hotblooded during a bout doesn't make a character a badass if they otherwise a "nice guy" to everyone they meet, after all the name is "BAD-ASS" meaning such a character has some level of ruggedness about them. This leads to the case where "everyone wants the dark anti-hero" which is close, but may miss that part where a character must be somewhat loud, at the very least they show passion in combat to some extent. If the character silently beats down half a dozen guys it should be taken as an amazing feet, but just as well it can be taken that "it wasn't a struggle in the first place" if they beat up a pack some irate thugs when you are already a master of some form of martial arts. My point is that Badass as a term is something that has been unwittingly over used to the point that it could almost mean anything. |
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One-Eye
 Posts: 2261 |
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I think "Badass" is more of a description than a trait. Since you mention media in general I'll pull some examples from outside anime. Sherlock Holmes is an intellectual badass, Bruce Lee in his roles was a martial arts badass, in Lincoln (the movie) you have a leader that is intellectually and politically astute which is kind of badass.
I agree media in general has often tended to depict men as the badasses particularly in a physical sense. I think we are starting to see some small changes with that. Black Widow might be considered a token female by some but she can still kick butt. I'm not sure I agree with the examples. People like Kamina not only for the muscles, but because you know humor (i personally dont like loud obnoxious people). People don't hate Shinji because he's quiet and effeminate. I mean does everyone in general hate the quiet effeminate bishie's in anime? Nah, don't think so. I feel sorry for Shinji in NGE, besides the normal teenage stuff he's going thru its obvious he's also suffering from depression. You add in that the entire cast has personal issues (and these people are in charge of saving the world?) and its not exactly a great environment to be in. People hate Shinji because the show is not an upper and they are betrayed by their expectations. Shinji does not overcome adversity thru willful "hard work and guts". In some ways he's the antithesis of that. Anyways its a good topic and I agree with some of what your saying, but not all of the specifics. |
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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@ One-Eye
Well, the reason I picked Kamina and Shinji aren't because of the characters themselves, but based more on how the fandoms of their respective shows react to them. I already explained why I liked both earlier. When people praise Kamina, the first words you'll usually see to describe him are "badass", "manly" and "awesome". When people criticize Shinji, the first words you'll usually see to describe him are "crybaby", "weak", and "pussy". I wonder what this says about our culture, when we find more value in a character's physical strength than emotional strength... |
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walw6pK4Alo
 Posts: 9322 |
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Because Shinji had neither of those for the vast majority of the series, EoE, and the rebuild films? That also implies Kamina was physically strong but lacked any will, confidence, or charisma. More just muscles and idiot yelling, those are the emotional attributes that make people gravitate towards liking those characters. How about Captain Harlock? He's often quiet and reserved but he has unbreakable morals and will power, which definitely make him badass. That's why people want to follow him aboard the Arcadia. |
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FenixFiesta
Posts: 2581 |
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During the second rebuild film, Shinji has a brief moment of MAMORU in trying to save Rei. Shinji has his moments while piloting, but just as well he typically didn't revel in piloting itself, a "badass" would eat up riding around in a giant cyborg spouting one liners or at least give out unneeded yelling. That said, a single moment of glory does not automatically change the audience perspective on a character that at his best was "sympathetic". |
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One-Eye
Posts: 2261 |
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It goes right back to what you said about gender roles in our society. I think there has been some minor headway into that (stay at home dads, women in the military, more educational and professional opportunities for women, etc), but I think there's a long way to go yet. Historically, America wasn't always so concerned with men being macho. The genteel and elegant had its place, but I think around the turn of the century a more robust manhood began to be espoused. If I recall correctly Teddy Roosevelt was both a proponent and example of this. As far as media goes sometimes its ahead of the curve and sometimes it lags...badly. Also people are attracted to power and success. They want it or want to associate with it. It wouldn't surprise me if its part of the survival instinct to gravitate to those that on some level you think may help you to survive. Physical strength is but one type of power, charisma/leadership is another, talents/gifts, authority, wealth/economics/resources, etc. So it doesn't surprise me if people get enthusiastic about representations of powerful characters in media. |
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nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5120 |
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In an old thread (starting here) there is a discussion of the term "badass".
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Night fox
 Posts: 561 Location: Sweden |
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Imo Badasses:
- Have their own agenda and aren't exactly "team players". - Rarely lose their cool, regardless of the circumstances. - Are usually well-informed and one step ahead of opponents. - Often use trash talk and taunts to provoke enemies. - Are expert fighters and can singel-handedly dispose of a handful of mid-level adversaries. - Shoot first and ask questions later. - Usually have dark pasts, that are wrapped in mystery. - Carry weapons (usually more than one) at all times. So, in short, basically every character from Black Lagoon. 
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7983 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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To me, it's characters that possesses confidence, fighting prowess or mental discipline, and competency at what they do. They do cool things while looking cool doing them. This person usually also possesses a great deal of experience, skill and talent.
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