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EP. REVIEW: GATE


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SilverTalon01



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 2401
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:04 am Reply with quote
GhostStalkerSA wrote:
The very definition of a Just War and how the author uses it to justify the actions of the JSDF and all that is my proof. I'm taking the author's history as a right-wing Japanese nationalist and the fact that he's basically written such in his story to make that claim. I have spoken with people who have read the full (or light) novels of the series that are currently out, and they've pretty much confirmed this is how the story plays out.


{No personal insults allowed. ~nobahn} Stop making your own assumptions about what a person believes based on a fictional work. If you did not read or hear him say it, don't post like you did. What a farce.

Who cares if you have spoken with people who have read the full novel. What he writes as fiction isn't evidence of his personal beliefs. You're just making assumptions, and you know the saying about assumptions right? He may or may not believe that, but don't post crap like it is a fact when it is mere supposition.

GhostStalkerSA wrote:
Also, when I said that there's nothing anyone can do to stop the JSDF in the Special Area doing what they want, I'm specifically referring to using either military or political force to do so. The JSDF effortlessly maneuvers around any obstacle that is erected against them, and does whatever it pleases against the Empire, with the latter having absolutely no recourse but to take whatever the JSDF is dishing out.


Which you could use as a basis for an argument that the writing is poor, but that doesn't support one way or the other the points that were actually in question.

GhostStalkerSA wrote:
Please, don't make me laugh. If this series was extremely realistic, the US Japan Mutual Security Treaty would've been invoked the moment Japan was attacked by the Empire, there'd be US troops helping to defend Tokyo, US naval fighters from the Seventh Fleet at Yokosuka Naval Base outside Tokyo would've been on station to provide CAS during the defense, etc etc. The US would've sent troops alongside the Japanese in securing the Gate, and Japan would be unable to refuse due to the terms of said Mutual Defense Treaty and diplomatic pressure exerted if they attempted to.


The attack was resolved rather quickly so I don't find the US not intervening unrealistic whatsoever. Even if the US forces nearby got authorization in time to get their troops on site, we're talking about the middle of Tokyo. It doesn't seem that feasible to have both the US troops and the SDF try to cram into the city streets and step on each others toes. Considering that one of the main focuses should have been evacuating civilians with whom most Americans don't know the language to speak with, the SDF being the ones to handle it seems completely reasonable.

After that, they're on the other side of the gate so none of the other world powers really have evidence of what is going on so Japan has deniability. Sure the US could force its way in, but China would likely do the same. And I think its pretty realistic for neither of those two powers to be in a giant rush to start a war with the other.

GhostStalkerSA wrote:
Japan claiming the entirety of the Special Region as Japanese territory would've had China and South Korea throwing a shitfit at the UN


Oh yeah, the foreign powers are jumping up and down the situation... man wtf are you watching? The other countries are having a shitfit while they plot ways to get themselves in.

As for the UN, sure they could involve the UN, and that might end up with some kind of result... eventually... You don't seriously believe UN intervention guarantees results do you? Because THAT is horribly unrealistic.


Last edited by SilverTalon01 on Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:57 am; edited 2 times in total
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15457
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:17 am Reply with quote
Am I really the only one who found the woman's demands of asking about the casualties was okay? Go back a little bit, even now days, and you hear about all sorts of horrible things that can come from militaries if their actions are not questioned and scrutinised. Clearly her accusations were not needed, and that does from the fact that the JSDF have been impeccable in doing what they should.

Would it have been better to throw in some other person who shouted at them to see if they got revenge for attacking the glorious Japan and whether they wasted money on helping foreigners? Politicians can be horrible, and most so when they are being incredibly selfish in only pushing nationalistic ideals. I probably am not meant to like the character, but someone who can ask if more innocents could have been saved is not so bad, even if she largely wants to also use it to forward her cred. Do we even know if the top brass would have been so okay in treating refugees so well and such if they did not expect to come under scrutiny of treating others humanely?

In the fantasy world everything was at the whims of the king, while the modern one had the freedom that questions can be asked. The fantasy realm people are ignorant to the modern world, so it is perfectly understandable that the people back in Japan would be ignorant to a few things.
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SilverTalon01



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 2401
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:36 am Reply with quote
M. Northstar wrote:
BassKuroi wrote:
This fascist anime arrive just in time to see how Japanese government wipe its ass with article 9. Just watching to see how far they will go with this imperialistic panphlet with a moe sugar coat.


I would have called this a gross overreaction... but then I watched episode 8. Just abandoned all subtlety, didn't we?


No, it is a gross over reaction. A country greedily trying to exploit the resources of another country doesn't make it facist.

GhostStalkerSA wrote:
One of the clauses of said treaty require Japan and the US to report any such military action they undertake under the treaty to the UN Security Council, so there'd be a report to the UN and all the details on the "special area" would be coming out sooner rather than later.


Oh please, because countries never drag their feet and are always on the level...

GhostStalkerSA wrote:
The Japanese public also has no stomach for foreign adventurism, which sending the SDF across the Gate would be considered, Japanese political tomfoolery be damned, despite the large number of civilian casualties they seem to have taken in the Ginza Incident.


Irrelevant in the short term. Yes, there could potentially be enough of a public outcry that the members of the diet who support it might lose their seats in the next election. You're also being incredibly naïve. Have you never seen polling numbers showing a majority of Americans support something and yet it can't get through Congress?

GhostStalkerSA wrote:
The JSDF also has neither the logistical support or the operational doctrine to conduct an expedition to foreign lands, which again the "Special Area" constitutes.


Semantics and legal gray area. The entirety of the lands within the gate are 'contained' in Japan. There is no way to go there without going through Japan therefore it is "in" Japan. Sure, you could argue against that, but you can't absolutely refute it.

GhostStalkerSA wrote:
To your point of the Japanese not knowing what's on the other side of the Gate, why then did they declare everything on the other side Japanese territory then?


They need to claim it before some one else does. I mean maybe more gates will open elsewhere. Claiming it maintains their options where as not claiming it potentially lets some one else claim it first and inhibit their options.

dtm42 wrote:
Japan could not rightfully claim sovereignty over land/people/structures that were never in its territory to begin with (and are still not inside its territory by the way).


Can you please point me to a source that explains the international standard for how wormholes count with regard to national borders? Oh, I'm guessing you can't. The whole concept doesn't really even work at that point.

Whether or not it would get internationally recognized, there isn't anything stopping Japan from doing it.
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Key
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Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:31 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
Am I really the only one who found the woman's demands of asking about the casualties was okay?

Oh, there was nothing wrong with her pushing for an investigation of that, as civilians nominally under the protection of the JSDF did die. The problem was the hostile, accusatory attitude she took when inquiring about it, as if she were on a witch hunt. (And we got to see enough of her thoughts to know that she was, indeed, out to nail the JSDF to the wall.) I suspect that Rory wouldn't have gone off on her had she been asking the questions in a more neutral fashion. Rory may not understand everything about modern Japan, but she's been around the block plenty enough to know what the woman was getting at, as politicians getting upset by what they see as irresponsible actions of a military is hardly a modern-world concept.
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Johan Eriksson 9003



Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Posts: 281
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:39 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
DuskyPredator wrote:
Am I really the only one who found the woman's demands of asking about the casualties was okay?

Oh, there was nothing wrong with her pushing for an investigation of that, as civilians nominally under the protection of the JSDF did die. The problem was the hostile, accusatory attitude she took when inquiring about it, as if she were on a witch hunt. (And we got to see enough of her thoughts to know that she was, indeed, out to nail the JSDF to the wall.) I suspect that Rory wouldn't have gone off on her had she been asking the questions in a more neutral fashion. Rory may not understand everything about modern Japan, but she's been around the block plenty enough to know what the woman was getting at, as politicians getting upset by what they see as irresponsible actions of a military is hardly a modern-world concept.


I don't think you can even call it an "accusatory tone" as much as a full-on supervillain speech. Seriously, who in their right mind would yell "Expose the SDF's true colors" while on a live feed? Someone really went all out in making their straw-woman appear as villainous as possible, while also making her incompetent.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: Austin, TX
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:52 am Reply with quote
GhostStalkerSA wrote:
The biggest problem I have with her is that she's supposed to be a caricature of a real person, and she seems to get attacked in all sorts of right-wing Japanese media for her anti-JSDF stance whenever an author needs to pull out a obstructionist strawman politician that's against military action.

Yeah, because god knows THAT never happens anywhere else.
We don't have ANY movies or TV shows that...
-Present Kim Jong Il as a cartoonish evil super villian
-President Bush as anything from a gibbering idiot to cowardly pee your pants warmonger
-President Obama as anything from an action hero to a potentially super power savior
-Saddam Hussein as a LITERAL lover of Satan

(And that's just the BLATANT ones that I could think of off the top of my head)

EDIT: also, regarding Rory's halberd. Based ONLY ON THE ANIME, I don't we've seen any evidence yet that anyone (including the vaunted JSDF) could really TAKE IT from her if she didn't want them to. I mean, she seemed ready to fight the "really strong" dragon with a polearm.
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meiam



Joined: 23 Jun 2013
Posts: 3442
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:37 am Reply with quote
Sooooo they get a bunch of people from a magical realm in the real world to interview them and broadcast there response and 100% of the time is dedicated to asking about 150 civilian (when the JSDF have already killed like 50 000 soldier). No question about why they originally invaded, or what life is like or... I dunno... how they can use FREAKING MAGIC! You know what everyone would take away from this conference in the real world, that the other world discovered a way to make human live for over a thousands year. That would be a far bigger deal than anything, honestly if that happen a bunch of person would have just immediately shoved the caricature of a politician and her pointless question aside to ask about this.

Oh and gotta love that there sneaking plan was to take the subway, real stealthy, none of them stand out after the press conference...

Can we please go back to the other realm and never come back to the real world?
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SilverTalon01



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 2401
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:43 pm Reply with quote
They were called to the diet as witnesses which is why that was the focus. I think its quite likely we are intended to assume other things were asked, just not by that one woman. I mean I don't think people generally get called in to the diet to talk for 5 minutes.

Assuming the diet was briefed at least a bit about the people speaking, they would know that those 3 wouldn't be able to explain why the empire does what it does. I don't think the diet would be the ones trying to figure out magic either because I can't imagine the diet trying to reverse engineer a piece of tech or something. I don't see anything out of place with not seeing either of those brought up.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:59 pm Reply with quote
It's also possible that to the real movers and shakers, that was just a dog & pony show while the actual "negotiations" with Pina Colada took place elsewhere. While the tone of the one Diet member was somewhat over the top, I would more question why those three were being questioned at all. You could ARGUE that Rory has some kind of authority in Gateworld (altho, the level of awareness people seem to have with that looks low, but the other two (as far as we know right now) really are just "generic" refugees. It'd be like grabbing 2 random people (and I guess a cleric) off the streets of Iraq and getting testimony from them in Congress. Maybe its political theater if you get the answers you want, but other than THAT, I don't see the point.
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BassKuroi





PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:52 am Reply with quote
SilverTalon01 wrote:
M. Northstar wrote:


I would have called this a gross overreaction... but then I watched episode 8. Just abandoned all subtlety, didn't we?


No, it is a gross over reaction. A country greedily trying to exploit the resources of another country doesn't make it facist.


I didn't said the country is fascist, at least they have opposition in the Diet. But of course it is imperialist and a plutocracy.

If you read correctly your own quote's quote, I said the anime is fascist, and is an mild overreaction because the series is silly and poorly written. I was hoping something not so over-the-top as the lack of JSDF casualties, the valkyrie's ride (that was really dumb) and the parody of the leftist Diet member lady.

By the way, I was thinking that there's no way the MC was under commando and special forces programs and at the same time being so laid-back. I had the dubious pleasure of meeting two of them IRL and they're of course badass, very agressive, ideologically programmed, but also very sad and broken people.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: Austin, TX
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:20 am Reply with quote
BassKuroi wrote:
I was hoping something not so over-the-top as the lack of JSDF casualties, the valkyrie's ride (that was really dumb) and the parody of the leftist Diet member lady.

While I agree that the Diet member was over the top, and the valkyrie ride is a YMMV kinda thing, are you really calling the lack of JSDF casualties "over the top"? Outside of the dragon "fight" we're talking about trained men & women with MODERN weaponry against MEDIEVAL armed opponents. No matter what else one might take issue with, I really do think the "battle" at the hill was a realistic depiction of how that would turn out. Ten guys with modern day automatic weapons (to say nothing of air support, TANKS, night vision and various other tech) could wreck serious havok in the American Revolution, and the people in THAT war actually had guns and cannons. Go back hundreds of years earlier and you really are talking about a situation where one side really is ridiculously outclassed, to the point that they should NOT ever really seriously threaten the other side.
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:52 am Reply with quote
Oh, you don't even need to go that far. The first repeating rifles were such a massive advantage over muzzle-loaded rifles that that they could allow a small number of soldiers to hold off even an immensely bigger force. The only reason their introduction didn't allow the Union Army to utterly dominate the late stages of the American Civil War is because tactics had not advanced enough to fully take advantage of their dramatically increased rate of fire.

And tactics is another important factor here. Kobayashi didn't get out of that battle unscathed just because she was good or fighting back-to-back with Rory; she got out clean because her fellow soldiers knew exactly how to cover her butt.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:03 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Oh, you don't even need to go that far. The first repeating rifles were such a massive advantage over muzzle-loaded rifles that that they could allow a small number of soldiers to hold off even an immensely bigger force. The only reason their introduction didn't allow the Union Army to utterly dominate the late stages of the American Civil War is because tactics had not advanced enough to fully take advantage of their dramatically increased rate of fire.

True, but I went with Revolutionary era because of the prevalence of rifled barrels in the Civil War. I admit that I'm not an expert with respect to firearms, but I'd assume that unless we're talking absolute "expert" marksmen on both sides (at which point you also sacrifice significant rate of fire IMO), the "effective range" of both sides could be comparable. I figure if you put modern soldiers (of average skill) against revolutionary soldiers, even the more proficient soldiers would have trouble matching the modern weaponry for range. You could setup a fully automatic position and have a pretty low probability of anyone from the other side hitting you with anything besides pure, dumb luck while still being fairly accurate.
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SilverTalon01



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:36 pm Reply with quote
BassKuroi wrote:
If you read correctly your own quote's quote, I said the anime is fascist, and is an mild overreaction because the series is silly and poorly written.


The "it" in my post was suppose to be referring to "the anime." But maybe I misunderstood why you are saying the anime is fascist. You specifically references Japan's actions so your post appeared to be calling the anime fascist because of that. Perhaps you want to elaborate if you are getting to that conclusion due to other facts.

BassKuroi wrote:
By the way, I was thinking that there's no way the MC was under commando and special forces programs and at the same time being so laid-back. I had the dubious pleasure of meeting two of them IRL and they're of course badass, very agressive, ideologically programmed, but also very sad and broken people.


I would imagine that those two you met have actually been deployed. I am pretty sure Itami never was.
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M. Northstar



Joined: 22 Aug 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:42 pm Reply with quote
BassKuroi wrote:
This fascist anime arrive just in time to see how Japanese government wipe its ass with article 9. Just watching to see how far they will go with this imperialistic panphlet with a moe sugar coat.


I would have called this a gross overreaction... but then I watched episode 8. Just abandoned all subtlety, didn't we?
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