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Samurai-with-glasses wrote:

tkwelge wrote:

I have plenty of friends who work pointless jobs for little pay and live with no goals. I don't have a problem with that. If you work and pay for your own sh!t, then you are at least putting in to society what you're taking out of it (more or less). But if you literally do nothing, and withdraw from society, you're just a spoiled loser.

Your assumption is simple: all otaku are spoiled losers; all otaku have other people supporting their "non-contributing" habits; all otaku do not deserve respect; pity, perhaps. A grand generalization: I vehemently disagree.

Define me "real life." I'll show you pointless.

Quite frankly, some people find it easier in this world than others. Just because you can doesn't give you a right to insult and disparage entire groups of people who might not be so well-suited or so fortunate as you are...

I like how I actually never said any of this stuff. Then you go on to accuse me of attacking the underpriveleged? If these people have parents that can support their "withdrawal from society," then they are not underpriveleged. I don't have parents that could, or would, support such a lifestyle. They are luckier and better off than I am.

tkwelge wrote:

... The whole withdrawing from society thing is what I object to, because it requires the support of co-dependents. In fact it is the opposite of the American dream to live a life that requires others to take care of you. Choosing to live such a life, rather than being forced into it by racism, poverty, disability, etc. makes you a low person in my opinion.

If you really look at the American dream, it is dependent on the work of others. It basically involves climbing as far up the employment chain to get the largest salary available in your dream avocation to support conspicuous spending imo. Wink

The American Dream has its own pressures, but due to individualism within our society there are relief valves (acceptance for those felt to have done their best). The Japanese society probably don't have relief valves and looks to me to be highly structured with few avenues for individualism and societal/ family acceptance for those not reaching the top.

In American society, if someone teases you, you are taught to kick their ass or become a victim. Hikkimori types stick out and are harrassed before they become hikkimoris. I get a feeling that kicking the harrasser's ass over there may not be proper. So, their only recourse may be to withdraw (and become victims). The family may be supporting them in hopes that it blows over and it never does. Or the family has its own issues which leads to co-dependency.

So, I wouldn't call them "low" by any means.

We definitely need people who live or lived in Japan to add their views.

Regardless of how much they got their asses kicked in high school, they would still have to get a job if their parents kicked them out. You can't hide behind that your whole life. You can't use culture as an excuse or a shield. It doesn't work that way.

tkwelge wrote:

All I said was that any life that depends on the constant support of co-dependents is that of a loser.

Agree.

tkwelge wrote:

The whole withdrawing from society thing is what I object to, because it requires the support of co-dependents.

If we're just talking about antisocial nerds (otaku), then certainly they can still hold a job and make money. The "abnormal" thing about them is that they then go home and stay there and only talk to girls over the Internet, if even there. But that's their call to make.

If we're talking about hikikomori, then I'm pretty sure we're looking at a temporary period in a person's life. I don't think we have any long-term data on the phenomenon, but I can't see it lasting for a person's life. It's just a reaction to societal pressures. Eventually they will feel compelled to go out there and get a job. One hopes. Whether they will be successful in finding a job at that point remains to be seen.

tkwelge wrote:

In the natural world, these people would not survive.

Come on, now you're being silly.

tkwelge wrote:

Furthermore, there was another poster who talked about japanese society being an "enigma" and how we would never really understand it. You sound like your talking about the magical world of the smurfs when you talk about OTHER HUMAN BEINGS. This is shocking, almost a little racist.

The Smurfs are actually much easier to understand than the Japanese. Anyone who thinks they understand the Japanese hasn't studied them long enough to learn that they don't understand the Japanese. There's nothing racist in saying that.

Everyone keeps assuming that I'm hating on people who don't strive for the traditional "American Dream." I'm not. And when I say "real life" I don't mean working like a dog to attempt to make 100 grand a year. When I say "real life," I mean doing what you have to do to get what you want. I mean making real interpersonal relationships with others. Striving to become self-actualized. I believe that these "Otaku" are just depressed, and it is their depression that is keeping them from doing the things they need to do to become happy. Part of getting over such depression is to face "real" problems. Where is my food coming from today? Things like that. Also, knowing what it is like to have others depend on you; that gives people a warm feeling and a set of goals that makes them happy when they achieve them. But to experience those feelings, you have to take risks, and form relationships. You also have to accept personal responsibility for yourself. A co-dependent only allows you to continue your illness, but the illness itself is something that you must fight.

I'm speaking from a mixture of personal experience and observation, by the way.

On an unrelated note, I'm surprised that no one has objected to this sentence:

Quote:

Male otaku live out their fantasies at "maid cafes," where they are waited on by maids whose costumes come from erotic comic books.

(Bold mine)

Excuse me? So any manga with a maid outfit is hentai now? That means, like, 50% of all manga are erotic. Any of those "maids" in the cafes would say, "Moe" when asked why they dressed that way. Then again, some of you would say that's a cover for an erotic fetish, and I have NO desire to open that can of worms.

I'm just saying it's more cute than erotic. That's too strong of a word. We don't need more bad rap in the anime/manga world, thankyouverymuch.

tkwelge wrote:

Regardless of how much they got their asses kicked in high school, they would still have to get a job if their parents kicked them out. You can't hide behind that your whole life. You can't use culture as an excuse or a shield. It doesn't work that way.

But if your read the hikkimori article linked to the maid cafe one (yeah, noticed the "erotic" line also...) it sounds like at least some (& actually a lot) may actually have a mental health issue. Several commented when they left Japan where the trains didn't always run on time, etc, many improved. No, they don't exactly match Western diagnosis for various disorders. This seems to be unique to Japan so someone may need to come up with a new diagnosis & treatment.
In America, not everyone learns to kick ass. I work in Criminal Justice & a co-worker commented when Reagan shut down the state mental hospitals, they all knew the patients would be headed our way & they did. I fail toi see how people can'ty talk to this section of my clientel & not know they're a bit off, but I get them all the time coming in saying how their family's always telling them to get a job & I tell them if your doc says don't work, don't work. Last thing anyone wants is for one of these guys to go off because they can't deal with the pressures the rest of us do. My paranoid schizophrenic brother-in-law jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge because it all got too much for him. My paranoid schizophrenic nephew-in-law took a knife to his hispanic brother-in-law (he has issues with hispanics) & his dad is always telling him to get a job even though he's getting SSI. I keep telling the young man no, only work if his doc believes he's up to it. And the description in the article of only going out at night when no one can see them screams something is wrong with these guys. Why would loser geek kids care?
So no, I wouldn't agree these are all loser geek kids. Some, yeah. All societies have freeloaders & always have. But I'll bet they'll be naming a disorder that applies to a decent portion of them sometime in the future, hopefully soon enough to help them.

tkwelge wrote:

Everyone keeps assuming that I'm hating on people who don't strive for the traditional "American Dream."
..............
I'm speaking from a mixture of personal experience and observation, by the way.

There you have it. You're projecting your American values onto Japanese people. Oh, and I'm glad you've seemed to solve the problem of depression! Sure, all depressed people have to do is face the "real" world and they'll be dandy! Go write a self help book.

Iritscen wrote:

On an unrelated note, I'm surprised that no one has objected to this sentence:

Quote:

Male otaku live out their fantasies at "maid cafes," where they are waited on by maids whose costumes come from erotic comic books.

(Bold mine)

Excuse me? So any manga with a maid outfit is hentai now? That means, like, 50% of all manga are erotic. Any of those "maids" in the cafes would say, "Moe" when asked why they dressed that way. Then again, some of you would say that's a cover for an erotic fetish, and I have NO desire to open that can of worms.

I'm just saying it's more cute than erotic. That's too strong of a word. We don't need more bad rap in the anime/manga world, thankyouverymuch.

I think that you over-reacted to their statement.

Well, there is a maid fetish out there. Maybe the moe maid costumes are actually based on the hentai maid costumes. They certainly aren't real maid uniforms. Some of their "duties" do appear to be beyond the norm for real maids, like the customer being in a special room and read to by a maid (for an extra fee).

I think that some of those cafes that offer special services like above are walking a fine line between moe and eroticism.

astra wrote:

tkwelge wrote:

Everyone keeps assuming that I'm hating on people who don't strive for the traditional "American Dream."
..............
I'm speaking from a mixture of personal experience and observation, by the way.

There you have it. You're projecting your American values onto Japanese people. Oh, and I'm glad you've seemed to solve the problem of depression! Sure, all depressed people have to do is face the "real" world and they'll be dandy! Go write a self help book.

The first statement of mine that you quoted is the antithesis of your point.

Several people have already taken what I said out of context, or accused me of attacking schizophrenic people or underpriveleged groups. Wow. I just shared my opinion. Bad idea.

My only points were

A) People who are truly "suffering" from hikkimori are only doing so because somebody is supporting it.
B) The hikkimori epidemic is really more about media hype than anything else.
C) It is not impossible to understand Japanese society. They are humans. Not otters. Studying Japanese society is probably similar to studying many other cultures anthropologically.

CCSYueh wrote:

In America, not everyone learns to kick ass. I work in Criminal Justice & a co-worker commented when Reagan shut down the state mental hospitals, they all knew the patients would be headed our way & they did. .

I am a little nerd. I'm hardly mr. kickass. But I rarely go around making excuses.

Your whole Reagan critique strikes me a little too. I'm assuming that you are saying that when Reagan "shut down" the state mental hospitals, that all of the people would than have to be handled by our criminal justice system. Well, the crime rate exploded throughout the 60's and 70's (before Reagan), during the 80's, and then it slowed and began to decline in the mid 90's. I don't think there is any connection between our willingness to feed and house people for free, because they say they have a mental disorder, and the rate of incarceration. It sounds logical, but it also seems logical that, if somebody is not a threat to themselves or society (directly), then feeding and housing them for free is not necessary.

If somebody is diagnosed with a real mental problem, then yeah, of course it may not be their "fault" that they are in a certain situation. But I would be willing to bet that the majority of the hikkimori need to experience, for once in their lives, what it is like to know that the only person that they can depend on is themselves (for food, clothing, shelter, etc.). The hikkimori situation is just a failure of the family. But trying to compare these people to schizos (and other people with serious mental disorders) is kind of a misrepresentation.

Iritscen wrote:

On an unrelated note, I'm surprised that no one has objected to this sentence:

Quote:

Male otaku live out their fantasies at "maid cafes," where they are waited on by maids whose costumes come from erotic comic books.

(Bold mine)

Excuse me? So any manga with a maid outfit is hentai now? That means, like, 50% of all manga are erotic. Any of those "maids" in the cafes would say, "Moe" when asked why they dressed that way. Then again, some of you would say that's a cover for an erotic fetish, and I have NO desire to open that can of worms.

I'm just saying it's more cute than erotic. That's too strong of a word. We don't need more bad rap in the anime/manga world, thankyouverymuch.

On the bright side, the term "erotic" implies, as in "erotica," a sense of sophistication. So in a way, the writer of the article was being nice.

tkwelge wrote:

The first statement of mine that you quoted is the antithesis of your point.

Several people have already taken what I said out of context, or accused me of attacking schizophrenic people or underpriveleged groups. Wow. I just shared my opinion. Bad idea.

My only points were

A) People who are truly "suffering" from hikkimori are only doing so because somebody is supporting it.
B) The hikkimori epidemic is really more about media hype than anything else.
C) It is not impossible to understand Japanese society. They are humans. Not otters. Studying Japanese society is probably similar to studying many other cultures anthropologically.

Well People who are truly suffering from hikkimori that dont have financial (or any) backing become what we call "homeless" people...do any hikkimoris have jobs, I mean just because they have a social issue doesn't mean they cant get a job with minimal human contact...just wondering.

Though I have to ask you (in a very polite way Very Happy

) who said studing any culture or society was easy (they are trying to say that it's very difficult). The Japanese society is a confusing one but there are many cultures and societies that we still don't completely understand...sometimes I wonder if we (as in all human beings) will ever be able to truly understand diffrent cultures...maybe a few but some are just so vastly diffrent, you know.

tkwelge wrote:

CCSYueh wrote:

In America, not everyone learns to kick ass. I work in Criminal Justice & a co-worker commented when Reagan shut down the state mental hospitals, they all knew the patients would be headed our way & they did. .

I am a little nerd. I'm hardly mr. kickass. But I rarely go around making excuses.

Your whole Reagan critique strikes me a little too. I'm assuming that you are saying that when Reagan "shut down" the state mental hospitals, that all of the people would than have to be handled by our criminal justice system. Well, the crime rate exploded throughout the 60's and 70's (before Reagan), during the 80's, and then it slowed and began to decline in the mid 90's. I don't think there is any connection between our willingness to feed and house people for free, because they say they have a mental disorder, and the rate of incarceration. It sounds logical, but it also seems logical that, if somebody is not a threat to themselves or society (directly), then feeding and housing them for free is not necessary..

Reagan wasn't governor of California in the 1980's. As President of the United States he would have nothing to do with STATE mental hospitals here in California which were eliminated when he was governor here. That shifted the mentally ill onto the streets. A lot (not all) of our homeless people have mental health issues. (By the way, Criminal Justice isn't just prisons & jails. Never worked in one of those) The problem with drugs is a lot of the mentally ill flush the stuff their docs give them because those drugs that actually help them aren't familiar-they make them feel strange so they prefer the street stuff they've used forever which they think help them feel better but don't as witnessed by their getting dragged before a judge to explain why someone like my one incredibly quiet guy who's fine as long as he's on his meds, but his pattern is he goes off them every few yrs-last time he threatened a security guard with an ax.
Could my paranoid schizophrenic nephew-in-law get a job like his dad thinks he could? Yes. And if something set him off & he hurt himself or someone else, oh, well. At least he would have been earning his keep & not being housed & fed for free, right?

You don't get it. These people can't help it. In my distant past I worked at an answering svc & we answered a lot of dr lines & I remember one call where a desperate family member was trying to reach the doctor because the mentally ill person regularly heard voices that told her to run & the only way to stop her was to physically sit on her. A normal person could resist--this person couldn't. A normal geek sponging off his friends & family could go out in the daylight. They wouldn't feel anxious around others. That is another large number of my clients-the ones manipularing their families because their families let them (enablers). There is a decided difference between the 2 types.

tkwelge wrote:

If somebody is diagnosed with a real mental problem, then yeah, of course it may not be their "fault" that they are in a certain situation. But I would be willing to bet that the majority of the hikkimori need to experience, for once in their lives, what it is like to know that the only person that they can depend on is themselves (for food, clothing, shelter, etc.). The hikkimori situation is just a failure of the family. But trying to compare these people to schizos (and other people with serious mental disorders) is kind of a misrepresentation.

And as I pointed out, not going out except at night sure sounds like a mental illness. If the Western models don't apply, they may need to tweak them to apply to Japanese hikkimori.

CCSYueh wrote:

Could my paranoid schizophrenic nephew-in-law get a job like his dad thinks he could? Yes. And if something set him off & he hurt himself or someone else, oh, well. At least he would have been earning his keep & not being housed & fed for free, right? .

I'm getting tired of pointing out that I never said anything about people with SERIOUS MENTAL DISORDERS. I never said that people with SERIOUS MENTAL DISORDERS could "get over it" by getting a job. This is not fun anymore.

CCSYueh wrote:

You don't get it. These people can't help it.
And as I pointed out, not going out except at night sure sounds like a mental illness. .

You could use that for anything, though. He doesn't do any work. Mental Disorder. He likes to rob banks. Mental disorder. He likes to have sex with passed out 14 yr olds. Mental disorder. Any "unusual" or unnacceptable behaviour could then be classified as a mental disorder.

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