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NEWS: When Piracy Becomes Promotion [2006-12-02]


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v1cious



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 5058
Location: Fresno, TX

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:23 pm Reply with quote
the sad part is some people will still argue against this. very informative article.
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The Xenos



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 1511
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:10 pm Reply with quote
Well, I would argue against people still distributing fansubs of Cowboy Bebop or groups fansubbing the already liscened Ghost in the Shell. This inherantly flies in the face of the spirit fansubs were started in.

Basically,kids these days just want everything for free. (Then again, I'm in my 20s and you see plenty of fans my age with the same mentality.) They have no clue how amazing it is to have the access to anime we have today compared to what it was five or ten years ago. They also tend to have no clue the large amount of work it takes on the part of the American company. They bitch and moan about the US company's prices, yet forget it's the Japanese company who is charging so much for the show in the first place. The Japanese company is saintly while the American company is villified. To them, the only way anime should be released is free fansubs. Plus, those fansubs always are considered better than any professional one. I jsut don't get it.

Another note, it's nice to see stuff about anime out of MIT. I used to go to their anime club for a few years on and off. A friend of mine who goes and is better with names said the Sean Leonard mentioned in the article was president of their club for a few years.
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sk1199



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 138

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:46 pm Reply with quote
I realize that the article is, incredibly, short for its subject matter but it almost seems pointless. Based on the paper's title the author seems to be saying that fansubbing/pirating is good for the anime industry. More directly the writer seems to argue that piracy/fansubbing is good for the Japanese anime industry but fails to look at the effect of the piracy/fansubbing on the domestic (american) licensor. His theory being that the fansubbers/pirates are actually a marketing index for the industry, in that, the more popular the show is to the consumers the more likely a company will license the show and sell legitimate copies to those same consumers (at least that's my interpetation). The paper sites no facts or statistics, it only states an opinion. As such, I fail to see what makes this article worth publishing in the first place.
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ManSlayer07



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 214

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:11 pm Reply with quote
The article was interesting but felt incomplete and disorganized. The article didn't explain/mention how anime is currently fansubbed (digitally) but instead got into doujinshi. Confused
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LordRobin



Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 354
Location: Akron, OH

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:15 pm Reply with quote
The Xenos wrote:
They bitch and moan about the US company's prices, yet forget it's the Japanese company who is charging so much for the show in the first place.


I don't think fans get just how cheap anime is over here. I remember paying more than we do today for a VHS tape with two episodes on it. Hell, the Japanese are still buying their anime two episodes at a time.

sk1199 wrote:
His theory being that the fansubbers/pirates are actually a marketing index for the industry, in that, the more popular the show is to the consumers the more likely a company will license the show and sell legitimate copies to those same consumers (at least that's my interpetation).


You gotta be kidding me. That's the gist of the article? That's hardly original -- that idea's been used as a justification/excuse for fansubs for years, going back to my Usenet days. And it used to be true, back when anime in the US wasn't as big of a business. Nowadays, American anime distributors keep strong contacts with the Japanese industry to see what's coming up that looks hot and marketable. They hardly wait for fansubs to pop up before they make their decision. Hell, by that time, it may be too late.

------RM
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Steve Berry



Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 522
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:17 pm Reply with quote
I think you have to look at it as an editorial rather than a fact based "statistical" analysis. Lots of papers and magazines publish editorials all the time. It becomes newsworthy because people are simply interested in reading different opinions on a subject-- opinions that might be reflective, at least, of someone who has some experience in the field, or has researched it a bit. No one's saying it has to be definitive-- just well written, with some logic in it.

People endlessly disagree about the value of fansubs, but I think it'd be a lie to say that there aren't some logical arguements both for and against fansubs. As such, I don't see any reason for there not to be another editorial on the subject-- it might not be saying anything new to many of us, but the fact that this is even a topic of conversation amongst some groups (like us) is probably news to others.
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jxh2154



Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:08 pm Reply with quote
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Last edited by jxh2154 on Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Zalis116_v2



Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:46 pm Reply with quote
Even as a supporter of fansubs, I have to say that the article didn't go into enough detail about the cutting-edge, modern-day fansubs, and thus isn't appreciating the full picture of the positives and negatives of fansubs.
The Xenos wrote:
Well, I would argue against people still distributing fansubs of Cowboy Bebop or groups fansubbing the already licensed Ghost in the Shell. This inherently flies in the face of the spirit fansubs were started in.
I'd like to know just who is still distributing fansubs of Cowboy Bebop--not because I want to download them, because I believe they're not out there anymore. For pretty much any pre-2000 series that's been fully released on R1 DVD, it's not going to be fansubs you'll find out there in the downloading scene, it'll be DVD-rips. The funny thing is, I've never once heard any reps say "DVD-rips are killing the industry," even though they're far closer to a replacement for legitimate product than fansubs can ever be.

No no, fansubs are always the villain, and I partially blame the companies for the increase in groups that sub licensed anime--all the official rhetoric is, "Fansubs are stealing, we hate you, kthxbye," so the groups figure, "Well, if they're going to put us in the same criminal bracket whether we're subbing some obscure dating-game adaptation like Lamune or something popular like Naruto, we may as well sub Naruto."
The Xenos wrote:
Plus, those fansubs always are considered better than any professional one. I just don't get it.
Maybe the companies just don't want to admit that the fansubs are better *sometimes* and hide behind the "piracy is wrong" smokescreen to cover their as$es when they do subpar work.
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Steve Berry



Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 522
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:26 pm Reply with quote
Zalis-- your point re: DVD rips versus fansubs is well put, and one I haven't heard somebody make the distinction of. And you're right about fansubs of liscened available material-- it isn't fansubs you're getting if you torrent them, but generally DVD rips, which is its own issue.

Still, that's a whole other discussion-- mostly, I just wanted to say that editorials are common. You don't need "facts" to make news, you simply need opinions. Also, I wonder who the intended market for the article was. I would presume not us. If it is though, then yeah, it's probably pretty useless.
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minakichan



Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 1069

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:26 pm Reply with quote
*pop* Hear that sound? It's the sound of a cap of worms opening.

Some respondants are pointing out that the focus on VHS dubbed tapes makes the article irrelevant to today's world. I think they're missing the point-- this article doesn't attempt to persuade readers to support fansubbing or the idea of it, but to document the origins of a cultural trend. Secondly, it does not specifically mean to discuss the origins of fansubbing; it's examining a broader phenomenon-- when piracy in general can become promotion in general; in this way, it's more relevant to discuss pre-boom fansubs and doujin. It's purely informative rather than persuasive; you could call it "biased informative," but it's purely stating historical events.
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Toshirodragon



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:27 pm Reply with quote
The Xenos wrote:
. Plus, those fansubs always are considered better than any professional one. I jsut don't get it.



Well I have an official YYH DVD with Kuwabara's name misspelled all the way through it, EVERY Geneon release lists Morikawa Toshiyuki's first name as Tomoyuki, one of my FMA discs has HUghes calling his wife Glacier, another YYH disc where Kuwabar clearly yells "Urameshi" and the sub says Yusuke... but hey who can argue with the "quality" of industry releases? Shocked
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Dune



Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 219

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:56 pm Reply with quote
Gracia's name really is Glacier, though. It was changed in the dub to avoid unwanted silliness.
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omar235



Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 1571
Location: Florida, Jacksonvile

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:35 pm Reply with quote
Dune wrote:
Gracia's name really is Glacier, though. It was changed in the dub to avoid unwanted silliness.


Yeah, that would be funny. Very Happy

I thought the article was a good read...but some people seem to think this is in someway supporting this piracy and it's not it's just an editorial. I agree with what Zalis116_v2 said about the DVD-rips VS fansubs. People seem to confuse the two and shouldn't, they are diffrent issues that should be dealt with diffrently. I have a bad feeling this is going to turn into a fansub debate...
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hikaru004



Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 2302

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:05 pm Reply with quote
I didn't think that the article was complete either.

It didn't touch on the recent Aquaplus announcement to the dojin creators about restrictions for the use of material related to their franchises (9/7/2006, Anime News Service) but still mentioned dojinshi, Black Hat Japan 2006 briefings on the state of Winny (10/10/2006, Anime News Service) or the recent activity of Japanese Society for the Rights of Authors, Composers and Publishers vs. YouTube (10/20/2006, Reuters).

Instead, we get a rosy picture of the Japanese licensors....

Quote:
The Japanese media companies’ tolerance of these efforts is consistent with their treatment of fan communities at home. The underground sale of fan-made comics (known as dojinshi), often highly derivative of the commercial product, occurs on a massive scale in Japan, with some comics markets attracting 150,000 visitors per day. Rarely taking legal action, the commercial producers sponsor such events, using them to publicize their releases, recruit new talent, and monitor shifts in audience tastes. In any case, they fear the wrath of their consumers if they take action against such a well-entrenched cultural practice—and if they did pursue infringers, the legal penalties in Japan are relatively light.


and a negative view of the US distributors....

Quote:
Many media companies in the U.S. would have regarded all this underground circulation as piracy and shut it down before it reached critical mass.
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Brians9824



Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 281

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:27 pm Reply with quote
At my anime club at college we have this debate all the time. The general consensus among people that know what the heck they are talking about is thats its wrong to d/l fansubs when a series licensed. End of story.

People don't realize that fansubs aren't meant as a way for you to score free anime. It's a way for you to see shows that may never be licensed in your area. This being a prime example animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=5094

Generally people who try to justify fansubs of licensed shows are just mad they can't d/l it for free anymore and are the type that would typically not buy the dvds ever. Fortunately the subbers themselves are for the most part great when it comes to fansubs and stopping when a series is licensed.
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