Forum - View topicNEWS: When Piracy Becomes Promotion [2006-12-02]
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Stupidman007
 Posts: 394 |
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My understanding of this article is that the topic and theme isn't directly pointed at the anime community, saying that fansubs are good for anime. Instead, I believe it's saying that sometimes it's good to take risks as far as piracy goes, and that fansubbing is a form of piracy that is in fact helping Japanese producing companies. In this article, it's more likely that fansubbing is simply used as a form of support for his main point, as it's (from my understanding) dealing with the rights and wrongs of piracy as a whole in a business perspective. As many has pointed out already, this article has no hard evidence, and isn't even relevant to modern fansubbing, dvdrips, etc... However, what it does do is that it provides an opinion about piracy as a whole from a highly regarded person using fansubs as a support. So yea, in a fansubing debate, I find this to be quite meaningless.
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BleuVII
 Posts: 672 Location: Tokorozawa, Japan |
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I don't think people realize how comparitively expensive it still is though! I live in Korea, and I can buy the Korean translation of a manga for roughly $3, when to get the same manga in an English translation, it costs $10! That's 3.5x more for the same thing. Granted, it is easier to translate from Japanese to Korean, but I STILL think the American market is gouging its consumer base. Let's also do a comparatives of Anime DVD's. I haven't yet checked the prices of those over here yet, so I will risk comparing "apples to oranges" here. Let's take video games as an example. Games that are translated from Japan nowadays have script translation, menu translation, and even new voice acting. Three weeks ago, I bought Final Fantasy XII for $50, and there is not a shred of Japanese left untranslated in this game! On top of that, I get to enjoy myself for 50-60 hours on my first time through. Compare that to a DVD release. I get four (sometimes 5) episodes that are only partially translated (the background text is RARELY translated), with (as has been pointed out before) frequent grammar and spelling mistakes, and they charge me $30. Granted, they provide an English language track, but I don't see how that justifies the higher cost. I am very ready to support Anime and Manga in the USA, but right now I think they are gouging their fanbase. I can't afford to keep up unless I dedicate all of my free resources to anime. I love fansubs, and I am not ashamed to admit that I love them because they're free. After all, the Japanese market sees these same things for free on Television, and I am mostly watching TV rips. I am happy to support anime in the US, but I just plain can't right now. |
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Royal Devil
 Posts: 194 |
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Funny, I pay on average $16-$18 for anime DVDs. I suppose you have yet to find the right online stores for this stuff. Or something like that. If you look hard enough very rarely will you pay over $25 for a single DVD. You forgot to add paying the way-too-high licensing cost to the DVD price. And yeah it's really not a good idea to compare a video game (especially on the level of FF) to anime DVDs. Now what's do you think of $50 for two episodes? |
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britannicamoore
 Posts: 2618 Location: Out. |
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Ah fansubs. Another arguement started.
The article did seem short. Like it was missing something. I can't place me finger on what though. it does seem like a good article if you want to know the short history of Fansubs though. my thoughts on fansubs... well. most of the dvds I buy (with the exception of Genon) cots me roughly $20. Suncoast was having a sale awhile ago and I got others cheaper. But. (you knew this was coming) I think fansubs are good. Not only for those who want to preview shows but for those who's shows got destroyed beyond repair. At least then you can keep up. I don't download entire shows but some dvds are pricy. Not everyone can order offline. My parents for example think putting their credit cards online will get money taken from them. Or sending money orders off somewhere. They believe in definte stroes they can walk into and go back to. It annoys me how everyone's says: ORDER OFFLINE! Not everyone can. Store also don't always have sells. Suncoast still sells a big majority of their dvds for $-24.99 - $29.99 off the rack. Does this mean I think people should download whole shows? No. i feel if you buy plushies or wallscrolls or something thats from the company you are still helping. I wrote this so people realise not everyone is able to buy offline and get the superdealsomg that are spoke of. ~brit Yes I know that some people just dl because they think anime is/should be free to us like in Japan. I don't think thats the majority either. You've got bad apples in every bunch. (Do apples come in bunches  )
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CorneredAngel
 Posts: 854 Location: New York, NY |
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For the more complete version (...and the 'fact-based, statistical analysis'), see Sean Leonard's Celebrating Two Decades of Unlawful Progress: Fan Distribution, Proselytization Commons, and the Explosive Growth of Japanese Animation (...which the Jenkins article is essentially a summary of.) |
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Abarenbo Shogun
 Posts: 1573 |
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The Wikipedia Article on Fansubbing has much more info than this paper. I mean, it's that bad to me, in my opinion.
Could've done more, but just came up short. |
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
 Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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I've been making comparisons in my mind since reading that article about the relative differences between fansubs of the heyday VHS era and fansubs of our fast paced digital world. I have been a fan throughout both periods although VHS tape fansubs where on the downswing as I started catching on to them. Actually it's funny to say this, when I learned of the demise of that clunky VHS format I was simply mortified, having video saved as files of 1's and 0's would make fansubbing so inconvenient, and I won't be able to wait for them to arrive in the mail anymore
But back to my point, the basic principle of fansubbing is the same for both digital and VHS format, or whatever technology is used to combine the translated text with the video and present it to the viewers. Fansubbers themselves have the same objective, it's just now it's easier to obtain material because of the internet and fansubbing actually is easier, but there's still timing and translating and those processes don't change much regardless of the technology used. So I think the article is relevant to both old and new fansubbing and distribution methods. However there was a failure to point out the possible consequences of having such open and free internet communication that might exist. Perhaps that's what was missing from the article but then again I think any type of report involving piracy ultimately boils down to comparing the plusses and the minuses of the technological advances that have come about in the last 10-15 years. |
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indrik
 Posts: 365 Location: yonder |
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I think this is a much more interesting aspect of the debate than many people give it credit for. There are a handful of articles out there in peer-reviewed journals on the topic, in math and economics journals. If you open it up to filesharing in general, rather than fansubs and anime, there are a lot more. Many of these are referenced in the paper that CorneredAngel posted- I particularly recommend the Lessig book, "Free Culture". I don't know that I end up agreeing with all of his arguments, but it's very well written and makes some really obtuse arguments easy to follow.
The basic argument is that there are a certain number of people who download and then buy, and a certain number of people who download and then don't buy. The question is, how many of the people who don't buy don't because they downloaded, and how many people don't buy because they didn't like the content? Or, how many people wouldn't have bought it anyway, and only watched because it was free? That's getting to the core of the idea that fansubbing or digital sharing is a way of advertising, but it requires modeling some behaviours that I'm not convinced anybody has (or, really, can) model accurately. I don't think there's a control group even remotely possible in the current fansubbing climate: essentially everything gets fansubbed one way or another. In anime terms, a thousand downloads of MD Geist do not even remotely mean a thousand lost dvd sales: most of the people who downloaded it did so because they've heard it was awful, and watched because it was free. If I remember right, shows like Naruto and Bleach are the ones that get the most downloads, and are also likely to get the most tv money, although dvd sales lag a bit. Is it because of downloads, or because they're marketed towards people who don't tend to buy a lot of dvds in the first place? Something like Ergo Proxy, which I don't think is going to be on tv, was popular in the d/l community, and is now getting a dvd release, would be an interesting indicator. There are certainly going to be people who liked it on fansubs, and now will either buy it or not. The question is obviously what percentage of the people who saw it and liked it are going to buy it, even though they dowloaded it. I think that's almost an impossible number to get at, but that's the beginning of understanding how downloading affects sales. Next you would have to go to people like me, who don't download, but do rely on the opinions of the d/lers when we buy dvds. (Not exclusively, but I do rely on them.) I think it's a really interesting topic. I'm glad to see some scholarly work, even if it's scholar editorial opinion lite. I've written a handful of articles like that (on paint, not on copyright law or digital progress) that would probably make the average person think I'm an idiot, but that's what these magazines are after: quick blurbs from people who know what they're talking about that might get people interested enough to read more. Excellent little article that would have been better with some "read more" references. Now everybody go read the 72-page behemoth that CorneredAngel posted, and then go read the references in it, and then we can have a snooty egghead fansub debate. It'd be cool, really. 
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giberwitz
 Posts: 36 |
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I for one could not be more in support of the fansubbing comunity. without fansubs who in america would be willing to check out a ninja dressed in orange? When I see an article of something that interests me I usually look for the US version and if it's not out try to find a fansub. I have all of naruto on my computer or burned to disk (incriminating myself a bit I guess). however here is how I view this, the anime is liscensed but not all is available, so the company is not realy losing any money over what has not been released for purchase. also I refuse to support bootlegs. I am begining to ramble here but I think that the japanese market has (had in some cases) the right idea here. by purseuing legal action against everyone and their mother for downloading illeagaly they have cause a surge in people getting stuff p2p just for spite. everything I have dled I have either erased after wiewing or bought the official release. fortunately the MPAA is only conserned about American releases for now. (I have a point in here somewhere I just know it). if anything fansubbing is the best thing to happen to anime since Akira.
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kitsunelady
 Posts: 37 |
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Well, I thought it was a pretty good article for a summary of the original, anyways...but man, you guys sure like to get worked up over fansubbing. Personally, I think that the HK DVD rips are much more harmful to the industry. They rip off the American dub (and even credit the American voice actors) for their 'Perfect Collections' and I have yet to see anyone screeching down the house about it. Mystery...
Well, I remember back in the day when fansubbing was having to order VHS tapes from a home distributor. I had Fushigi Yuugi, Hime-chan no Ribon (Which I'll wager NEVER makes it to the US, no matter how much I cry about it), Fancy Lala, Nurse Angel Ririka...only two of those made it to the US. It took me a while to get used to downloading anything, but I do it. I work at a video store, and even with my associate discount, I would hate to part with money for a series that *looks* good on the outside, but when you get it home and watch it...well, it sucks. That happened once. >_> I was quite displeased, especially since I couldn't resell it for more than 1/10th of what it cost me...so it's just ended up in a box down in the basement. I won't say what it was, cause I don't want any fans of it jumping down my throat. To each his own, and all that. Honestly, I can't think of any series that I have DLed and liked that I wouldn't be willing to also buy if it was licensed in the US. Sometimes I'll DL one episode of a series and hate it so much I just don't bother with the rest *cough*Air Gear!*cough* - that's the kind of series I'm talking about looking good on the outside but not something I'd like to spend my money on. Newtype may offer single-episode preview discs, but it's usually dubbed, and while I don't think there's anything wrong with dubbing, I personally would really rather see subtitles. Whatever the case, I like my pretty boxsets and my pretty coverart, and the occasional shitajiki *squee* that they might put in there, so even if I've dled the entire thing, as long as I liked it, I'll buy it when it gets over here. Besides, let's face it - their burn quality is way better than anything I could get. =p As for doujinshi, I guess we can all assume that such a thing would never fly in America. Heck, some fans get their heads bitten off for writing fanfics or doing fanart, no matter if it attracts new fans to the work or not. This is more often the case with American works, but I do seem to recall that CLAMP was quite anti when it came to having any of their work posted anywhere on the internet. So basically, all you people who make CLAMP icons and layouts and skins...I guess that means you.  Coal for you this year, my good son.
Although it wasn't anime, I think a good example of how uptight American companies are would be the 1337 Star Wars trailer. Not only was it hilarious, but it spread the word, and what did the author, who did this all in good fun, get for his effort? A cease and desist letter. At least he took that in stride [read: translated it into 1337 for the page that previously hosted the trailer] and with good humor. Ah well, you can still get it elsewhere -> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4736164577126715920 Information wants to be free, yo. =D |
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CGord
 Posts: 163 Location: Phoenix, AZ suburbs |
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I think trying to shut down fansubbing is not the way to go. Most of us (oops, "the people") who watch them are months or even years ahead of the anime dub companies; the fan base is already established, & waiting for them to release the product. That's a good thing.
As one example, I've watched Bleach from the first fansub release I saw of it. I still watch the weekly fansub releases, I TiVo the show on AS, & I bought the volume 1 dvd on release day last Tuesday. I'm manna from Heaven, as far as Viz & CN are concerned. All they have to do is let me know the product is available; they don't have to sell me anything. It's the same with many other shows, with many other people. Volunteers built their consumer base for these dub companies. Anime companies that crack down hard on fansubbers (*cough* Funimation *cough*) are viewing the issue backwards. They're not losing sales via internet downloads, they're gaining customers. Fansubs vs. DVD rip groups....it's a little different, but not much. The main issue is that the fansub group began subbing a given series before it got licensed in the States, while DVD groups often use R1's. Still, though, they're helping to build the consumer group. I watched a DVD rip of Beyond The Clouds, fell in love with it, & bought a copy of Beyond the Clouds. The other thing to consider with rip groups is that you're still not getting the exact same thing. You're not getting the same quality level, you're not getting extras, you're not getting any packaging, you're often not getting the dub audio, & most importantly, you're not getting it in a format that works with standard dvd players. Your viewing is limited to your PC (99% of the time, anyway). There are ISO's out there once in awhile, but the vast majority are not. No anime fan is going to settle for nothing but downloads. There is no substitue for the real thing. One last issue, it was brought up earlier in the thread: Hong Kong bootlegs. Keep in mind, the fansubbers & dvd rip groups are not making any money doing what they do. HK bootleggers are. I say watch fansubs, watch dvd rips, buy the dvd's, buy the manga, buy the soundtracks, buy the models, buy the figurines, buy the games, buy the artbooks, buy the wallscrolls, buy the plushies, but don't buy bootlegs. To the dub companies, I say adapt or die. The intarweb, you will not defeat her. She are big. |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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Whether you watch it on your computer or on your TV doesn't really make much a difference to begin with (and you can watch DVDs on you computer too!), but I think you can take pretty much any video file and covert into something that can be viewed on a DVD player without much difficulty. I've never tried it myself, but I've hear of people that do that because they don't like watching it on their computer. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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That article is too one sided and obviously opinion driven, that doesn't make it very informative unless I wanted to know about the author, not the subject. The information provided doesn't hold much relevance in the modern world.
No one can deny that fansubs do have a certain marketing value, no anti-fansub person worth their weight would try to say that factor doesn't exist. The real question is: at what cost? Yes, people can use fansubs as a trial of sorts, many do, even I have, but how many are using it as a replacement for the real deal? Those figures are never provided or shown, but based on the traffic on torrent sites and forums for those sites it's quite obvious that the numbers are potentially very high. So you have the fansub marketing value and the money earned due to that marketing, which would be value a. You then require the number of people who use fansubs to bypass paying for it and the losses caused by that effect, and that would be factor b. You take a and subtract b and if you dip in to the negatives you have your answer. Problem is, there is no concrete representation of what exactly b is. I do know this much, I have a number of co-workers at my job who watch anime, and of those co-workers only one other actually buys it. My office may not represent the world, but it's a potential indicator. But the simple fact is unless someone can show a solid representation of a and b this entire argument is worthless and meaningless conjecture. The potential can be argued either way, but potential doesn't mean a thing in the bottom line. |
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BleuVII
Posts: 672 Location: Tokorozawa, Japan |
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If I could pay $16-$18 for a DVD, it would bring it down to my price-range. I would then buy the discs one at a time instead of waiting for a box-set release. Can you share some of these bountiful websites with us? As for $50 for two episodes: there is no way. I am a big fan of anime, but there is a line that must be drawn. And bills that must be paid. And groceries to buy. And tuition. And many other things that take priority. It would be great if we were all working from an unlimited pool of resources, but many of us aren't. It is still special for us to save up our money and buy something that we desire. EDIT: Grammar |
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Royal Devil
Posts: 194 |
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Yeah well that $50 is what the Japanese have to pay most of the time. My sites only ship to the US and I think Canada. I have no idea about Korea though. But I'm sure they're out there somewhere on the net. Just don't get fooled by bootlegs. |
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