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The X Button - Long Division


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Levitz9



Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 1022
Location: Puerto Rico
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:03 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:

As for Indivisible, I really would've liked to see a completely different art style. To me, it looks too much like Skullgirls, but I get the feeling Lab Zero doesn't have the resources to have another art team. I personally feel that, if they want Indivisible to be its own game, it should look artistically different too. (Unless Lab Zero wants Indivisible to evoke Skullgirls in their appearance or it shares a multiverse with Sullgirls.) That it looks too much like Skullgirls is the biggest turnoff to me. I like the artistic design for Skullgirls, but I really, really would've preferred Indivisible to have its own identity as an IP.


I can see where you're going, but this kind of thing is inescapable when you have the same small team of designers on a project: Alex Ahad, Miriel Cartwright, Jonathan Kim... they're intimately tied with the design of the game, anyway. Indivisible wouldn't be what it is without them working on it.

It's like how Ristar looks a lot like Sonic the Hedgehog but played totally differently, if that makes any sense. Or Odin Sphere and Muramasa and Dragon's Crown. There were no other connecting points between those two games.

Besides, art-wise, the game does loads to differenciate itself from Skullgirls. It's set in an East-Asian-inspired world, whereas Skullgirls was "Dark Deco", with its heavy 1920s/raunchy Tex Avery-inspired design. Sure, the same unmistakeable artists are involved, but the games look way different in a side-by-side comparison.

Much like with Dragon's Crown, every aspect of Indivisible just wouldn't work without the art style complimenting it.

Kikaioh wrote:


Ultimately Nintendo is putting out a product, not producing games as an outlet for their team of artists. Just because some of their artists might want to make hentai cg models doesn't mean that Nintendo is obligated to put out products to accommodate those perverse fantasies, and this case is no different. The artists were hired to make a product that can sell to its target market, and if Nintendo feels that changes need to be made in order to better accommodate that market, then the artist is already well-aware that the art they're creating is made for and owned by Nintendo, and is created to express the company's vision of the game for the market, not their own.


QFT. The idea that Japan is somehow more "enlightened" for accepting sexualized minors is laughable anyhow when you remember that outside Otaku interests, this "acceptance" doesn't really exist. (Idols don't count--they're pretty otaku-centric.)
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:56 pm Reply with quote
Shenl742 wrote:
The beta does have an post-battle healing at least. There's a special attack gauge that builds up when you inflict damage. When a battle is over any unused portion of the gauge is converted to HP. The tiger-shaman lady also has a full-party healing spell.


Oh yeah, I forgot to connect why I'm concerned about beginner-friendliness with healing: That sounds like an unstable equilibrium kind of mechanic. That is, players who become skilled at the game can effectively use this mechanic to keep the party healthy and ready for the next battle whereas people who are just learning might not have much of that special attack gauge left and struggle with low HP.

I really do not like tutorials-by-fire, at least except at the very beginning of the game and with short iteration times. Hence, it's why I mention that I hope there is something to help people who have never played it before and have no familiarity with the way the game works.

I personally believe that for anything to succeed, it should be gentle to beginners, and in the case of a video game, at least be gentle at the beginning. The gloves can come off later, and I do love a good challenge (as long as all of the difficulty is fair), but at the very least, the first stage/chapter/map/whatever it's called should hold the player's hand long enough for them to understand the mechanics and how they tie into each other. Give them a taste of power, and they'll persevere way more than if you threw them into a pit and expect them to MacGyver out of it.

Levitz9 wrote:
I can see where you're going, but this kind of thing is inescapable when you have the same small team of designers on a project: Alex Ahad, Miriel Cartwright, Jonathan Kim... they're intimately tied with the design of the game, anyway. Indivisible wouldn't be what it is without them working on it.

It's like how Ristar looks a lot like Sonic the Hedgehog but played totally differently, if that makes any sense. Or Odin Sphere and Muramasa and Dragon's Crown. There were no other connecting points between those two games.

Besides, art-wise, the game does loads to differenciate itself from Skullgirls. It's set in an East-Asian-inspired world, whereas Skullgirls was "Dark Deco", with its heavy 1920s/raunchy Tex Avery-inspired design. Sure, the same unmistakeable artists are involved, but the games look way different in a side-by-side comparison.

Much like with Dragon's Crown, every aspect of Indivisible just wouldn't work without the art style complimenting it.


Yeah, I'm not sure if the decision to give Indivisible the same art style (or a similar one, at least) to Skullgirls is intentional or not, which is why I said that I, personally, would've preferred if it looked completely different rather than me saying they should be different.

Well, you can definitely have two different franchises look like they're clearly drawn by the same artists but still have a separate identity. No one's going to confuse The Fairly OddParents with Danny Phantom, for one. Same with your example of Ristar and any of the 16-bit Sonic games. Super Meat Boy does much to distance itself from The Binding of Isaac, art-wise. It's just something that I can't put my finger on where I see the screenshots and the game in action and can't help but feel like this is a Skullgirls spin-off even though I know it isn't.
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Kikaioh



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 1205
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:28 pm Reply with quote
[Edit]: I know you were responding to some egregious comments, but I just had to clean up the mess. Errinundra.
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Shenl742



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Posts: 1524
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:40 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:

Oh yeah, I forgot to connect why I'm concerned about beginner-friendliness with healing: That sounds like an unstable equilibrium kind of mechanic. That is, players who become skilled at the game can effectively use this mechanic to keep the party healthy and ready for the next battle whereas people who are just learning might not have much of that special attack gauge left and struggle with low HP.


Ehhh, it honestly didn't feel that way when I was playing the demo. I didn't really felt like I NEEDED to uses special attacks unless a new and stronger enemy got introduced, so my HP never really stayed critically low. And enemies respawn so I felt that if I really did needed to heal I could just backtrack a couple feet and button-mash on a weaker enemy.

There also seemed to be a kind of hidden "level-up" mechanic (after X number of battles characters would gain extra attacks in battle) and HP would be topped off, so there was that too.

Either way, it still IS a very early beta, so a lot of even basic things can change, and fan input will be coming in to make Lab Zero take a lot in consideration.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:57 pm Reply with quote
Okay. I was concerned you had to make extensive use of moves that use the special gauge. It does sound like a bad situation can spiral way out of control though.

I should probably play this prototype sometime soon to see how it's like.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5825
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:00 am Reply with quote
Nintendo is allowed to do whatever they want, since it is their property. Obviously it was okay for the Japanese market and they censored it for the American market. Only time and the market will tell if their choice was a good one.

That said, it is still censorship. And I take issue with the reviewers statement that
Quote:
these changes do nothing but improve the game.
From what the reviewer said, it sounds like this is an optional skin for the character. If indeed this is an optional skin, than the player can choose not to use it. So in the end, it isn't an improvement to the game, just an issue for one set of players to morally bash another set.

And while granted, that the character clothing design is a bit on the extreme side for swimwear, it isn't really all that far off, from what is available and what is actually worn by children and teenagers these days for the pool and beach. If it is good enough for real life, then it shouldn't be a problem for anime and games.
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Dessa



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 4438
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:50 am Reply with quote
Really good post my friend reblogged on tumblr:
its-supercar wrote:
a thing nerds do is, they conflate the legal concept of censorship (”the government is dictating what you can or cannot say”) with a colloquial concept of censorship (”a lewd thing was voluntarily made less lewd”), and treat both as morally equivalent/interchangeable. these two concepts are in fact polysemes- they are described using the same term, but they are distinct ideas without any direct ethical relation or equivalence. one is a violation of human rights, and the other is not.
but hoo boy, you’ll get an earful from hornyboys about The First Amendment if a video game designer changes their mind about displaying a minor’s underwear



I'm also quite offended by the allegation that finding that outfit disturbing makes me a pedophile.


Last edited by Dessa on Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14761
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:06 am Reply with quote
EighteenSky wrote:

Has Nintendo not seen Bikini Girls? They're the best outfit for an adventurer to have, they protect you from extreme cold, heat and much more.


Law of Female Gaming Anatomy - Chainmail Bikini Laughing

  • Rico: Why would they give her such skimpy armor that can only protect such a small portion of her body?

    Bron: How would I know? Maybe those are the only parts of her that are vulnerable!

    — Robotech





EighteenSky wrote:

Anyway wasn't interested in XCX but it is still sad that Ninty forced that unnecessary change. Don't see how it was creepy, it's not even sexualized for an outfit but double standards yada yada. Sad but true.




Methinks enough people would think of that as sexualized, what with the underboobs a size-too-small provocatively-swisscheese bikini no sane parents would willingly buy for their 13-yr-old daughter.............. and that's what matters to Nintendo.


leafy sea dragon wrote:
DTJB wrote:

If this is a legit edit on Nintendo's part, then it doesn't matter if the art is crass or just plain stupid, censorship is still censorship. You don't have to like a particular aspect of a work of art; if it's different than what the artist intended, it's not the artist's vision, it's someone else's altered version of it. Personally, I think an artist's vision and meaning should remain intact, even if the meaning behind the art doesn't amount to anything that's thought provoking, worthwhile, or good. It reflects what the artist personally wants, not what someone else wants it to be.

I feel like, even more so than with Fatal Frame, that outfit as it originally was would provoke some angry parents raising a media stink and damaging Nintendo's reputation. Nintendo is vulnerable to this sort of thing, as unlike Rockstar or Bethesda, Nintendo has a family-friendly image to it, so it continues to be a name parents trust. Losing that trust, at least as far as westerners with western sensibilities, could very well spell the end of the company.


It's an art vs. business thing. Many of the best artists aren't good businessmen to survive bankruptcy, and vice versa. Just like if companies want to sell foreign-made products in Japan, they may have to "kawaii-fy" the brand images. At the end of the day, ya still have to run a business.


leafy sea dragon wrote:
CoreSignal wrote:

Japan has its double standards, too. Sexualizing young characters in Japan may be ok but on the other hand, some forms of violence are not. I know the JP versions of Evil Within, Metal Gear Solid V, parts of the Uncharted games, God of War 3 etc. all had some or all of the blood and gore censored in some way. You could equally say that the JP publishers catered to their audience as well. That said, I also think the name changes by Nintendo are pretty stupid.

There's also No More Heroes and its sequel, which has the strange case of it becoming censored for violence in the country it was made (and carried to the European version) but all the blood and gore kept unchanged for the American version.


Until Dawn is also censored in Japan even though it's made by Sony itself:

Until Dawn’s Explicit Scenes Are Censored In Japan
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EighteenSky





PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:00 am Reply with quote
Kikaioh wrote:
You're being sarcastic... right? It shows underboobs. On a 13-year-old kid. I'm not sure what's creepier, that people actually like this kind of filth, or that some don't even see the sexualization in it.
enurtsol wrote:
Methinks enough people would think of that as sexualized, what with the underboobs a size-too-small provocatively-swisscheese bikini no sane parents would willingly buy for their 13-yr-old daughter.............. and that's what matters to Nintendo.

I'm not being sarcastic, I just do not see that as in any way sexualized. It covers as much as a moderate bikini would therefore I see nothing wrong with it nor it being in the slightest bit creepy, even for a 13 year old.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 5920
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:35 am Reply with quote
Levitz9 wrote:


Man, gamers don't deserve nice things.


Don't see honestly what's so great about Indivisible but then I don't see the deal with 99% of Indie games period.

Just-another-face wrote:
Well, you know Japan can and will justify why they do the things they do to females both young and old in games, including undressing them to practically nothing. And I'm sure everyone here knows what the "why" is.


No I'm not sure what the "why" is and why I'm supposed to see that as being bad whatever it is.
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maoyen



Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 170
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:34 am Reply with quote
Heh, Someone actually remembers Bloodstorm.

What was the rationalization behind putting Indivisible on Indiegogo? This seems like a terrible decision. If they had stuck with their original Kickstarter model, this would have been funded a long time ago. As it stands, they're getting next to no exposure.
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DavidShallcross



Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 1008
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:19 am Reply with quote
EighteenSky wrote:

I'm not being sarcastic, I just do not see that as in any way sexualized. It covers as much as a moderate bikini would therefore I see nothing wrong with it nor it being in the slightest bit creepy, even for a 13 year old.


I don't think I have seen bikinis worn so as to expose the lower curve of the breasts at the beach here in the U.S. Is this common in the U.K.? (Toplessness or nudity is something else.)
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5825
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:36 am Reply with quote
DavidShallcross wrote:

I don't think I have seen bikinis worn so as to expose the lower curve of the breasts at the beach here in the U.S. Is this common in the U.K.? (Toplessness or nudity is something else.)


I don't really think there is a point in discussing what part has the most skin exposed. Does it really matter. I have seen girls wearing 2 piece bikini swimwear, where you have to say WHY. Skimpy and scantily clad swimwear is available for children and teens, and they do get worn. All you have to do is go to the pool and beach, and you will see the entire gamut from conservative to liberal skin exposure.

When it is in anime it is evil, but when it is in Hollywood and real everyday life no one cares.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:37 am Reply with quote
DavidShallcross wrote:
I don't think I have seen bikinis worn so as to expose the lower curve of the breasts at the beach here in the U.S. Is this common in the U.K.? (Toplessness or nudity is something else.)


Or a window to expose the skin right above the genitals. I have never seen in real life, or photographs for that matter, so much skin exposed on a bikini except in pornography.
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Just-another-face



Joined: 08 Feb 2014
Posts: 324
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:43 pm Reply with quote
BadNewsBlues wrote:
No I'm not sure what the "why" is and why I'm supposed to see that as being bad whatever it is.


It's because Japan's founding deity was female. This is the excuse they use when justifying how they treat women in their fictional media. It was mentioned before here. Personally, I think it has to be the dumbest reason I've ever heard to justify tastelessly turning women into helpless sex objects in their games and anime.
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