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Answerman - Why Are Adapted Dubs Still Being Made?


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CandisWhite



Joined: 19 Apr 2015
Posts: 282
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:06 pm Reply with quote
Kadmos1 wrote:


I sometimes do think that the idea that the Japanese approved all this localizing is too good to be true. That is, there are times where I think an American company will make that story up to justify it getting censored and that the localization was done by an American company.


Approval can be as much as not giving an expletive about how the product is presented as long as it makes money.

Put the shoe on the other foot: Disney is majorly controlling of its brand and has its strict fingers in the foreign pies but other companies could give a rat's ass about how the product is cut up or mangled [censoring drinking or dress (sometimes something as simple as bare shoulders) for Muslim countries, adding scenes for Chinese releases] since it still will make a profit.

I don't like it for artistic reasons, or moral ones either, but that's what it boils down to: Japanese artistic integrity depends entirely on who has control and what they care about.
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BadNewsBlues



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:54 pm Reply with quote
Ali07 wrote:

Laughing Ah, yes, everyone will only ever be surrounded by those type of people. Again, you're always reaching for the worst possible scenario.


Worst possible scenario with the most likely outcome.

Ali07 wrote:

Of course, I won't be surprised if you come in and say, "What about those kids that are only home schooled, do not have friends, and do not have access to the Internet.


I wouldn't though since most kids in this country aren't home schooled, do have friends and.......well they get access to the internet one way or the other Wink
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Actar



Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 1074
Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:17 am Reply with quote
Quote:
...

Because drama –comedic, tragic; animated, live-action; adapted, raw- attracts us foremost through its characters: real, complicated, challenging personalities whose most urgent qualities shine through all the more for having traversed the cultural divide –who can adapt to a variety of contexts. They soar on their own strength, regardless of milieu, language or iteration, gaining momentum by each hand that touches them, each mind that invites them to take on just a little of itself en route to their destiny as icons. They surpass their origins and resonate across boundaries we didn’t even know existed, guiding the way, if we let them, through our own chaotic inner landscapes. To treat these towering creations as frail, gossamer genii loci subject to dissolve at the slightest departure from native soil is to seriously underestimate their power.

And indeed, if we cannot learn as an audience to confront these personalities and their stories in the spirit of exploration, allow them to engage us in all their seemingly contradictory manifestations, they become little better than tantalizing blank slates on which to project our own undeveloped sense of self; contemplating them, we learn nothing we don’t already know –or believe we know. We find ourselves caught in a cognitive feedback loop, unable to integrate or process aspects of experience not previously defined. Our favorite characters miss the vital chance to become something more than quaint cultural artifacts; we miss the chance to enrich our imaginations. And imagination is more than just convenient means of distraction. It is how we find our way into reality, work up the courage to speak to that person we harbor the secret crush on, or move beyond our first impressions. It is how we foster authentic experiences of our own.


What is this guy even going on about? He seems to have it all figured out but talks in such a condescending and pretentious manner, as if dubbing or adapting is doing us a big favor for our own personal development. No, it is not.

Is he actually saying that enjoying the work through subtitles gives us empowerment because we can't appreciate them fully enough and it therefore affords us the ability to create our own images of the characters in our heads? ...and that the adapting and dubbing process gives them "realness"? Where is the proof? Why do subtitles afford us with less information than the dub? His argumentation of Japanese being a "high-context" language fails when you consider the fact that subtitles will also account for the gaps in information during the translation process. Not to mention, he himself states that tone plays no part in it.

Speaking of "good" characters, whether or not a character is there to challenge, to provide social commentary, to provide comedy or to provide fan-service should not be a concern of his. He's just there to adapt. Not to mention, all relationships with fictional characters are one-sided. That is the nature of fiction.

He talks about the "universality of the material" but fails to address the specifics of it at all. For one, I consider the cultural material to be part of the original material as well, so let's not pretend that it can be separated completely. Where does he draw the line then, of what is culture and what is universal? Does Japan then need to be adapted into America? After all, it hardly affects the story, right? But what about a shrine? Hm... Can't have those in America. Not sure if people will be able to relate to Japanese names too...

I am hardly convinced by his piece at all. Not to mention, many assumptions were made. For instance, the fact that the writers themselves have a perfect understanding of what the characters should be. Don't they realize that, in the end, their interpretation is just another interpretation?

Everything starts to make sense when you realize that he's coming from a position where he has to defend his own job. Dubs are great so keep buying our releases.

Quote:
...the bottomless capacity for hyperbole and malicious one-upmanship that characterizes the entitled, reactionary critic.


This is the most ironic statement of the century. Has he even read his own writing?

BringBackUzume wrote:
As far as "Americanization" of anime goes, if it gets kids to buy the merchandise and convinces them to stick with the anime as they grow older and maybe even seek out the source material, then the adaptive writers have done their job well.


Has it been conclusively proven that kids will all shirk away from anything non-American?


Last edited by Actar on Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:13 am; edited 2 times in total
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:02 am Reply with quote
If those "Proudly Made in the USA" stickers are anything to come by, there are indeed plenty of American parents hesitant to buy anything of foreign origin (except cars, video games, and TVs).

AgitoZ wrote:
Pokémon was already a best selling game months before the anime ever reached the west. And who can say that without all the changes made it wouldn't have been popular? It's not like it was some ultra violent show that was so Japanese that was untranslatable. You have terms like the Kanto region itself and many aesthetics and Pokémon designs that have a very eastern influence and no kid cares.


In North America, the Pokémon anime came first, and then the video games. It created the idea from people not into the franchise, that still hasn't gone away, that the video games are adaptations of the anime rather than the other way around. So I would say that it IS the anime that allowed the franchise to take off in English.

BadNewsBlues wrote:
I'm of 50/50 on this while I do appreciate some dubs that go that extra mile for that level of authenticity at times it can feel somewhat superfluous. Though ultimately it's not as bad as other dubs that decide to just give someone an accent to a character for literally no reason which there are too many examples to name.


Yeah, I was pointing out an exception that should theoretically be valid, and I'm thinking of characters with Osaka accents that get adapted to a deep south accent because both regions have similar stereotypes.

Similarly, I'd say that if a work is full of punny names, it'd be reasonable to change the names to puns in the language being translated into, as I'm an advocate of translation by spirit. My own works of fiction are full of punny names, and if they somehow got popular enough to be translated into a different language, I would encourage those translators to change my characters' names to preserve the wordplay element.
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Lili-Hime



Joined: 05 Jun 2014
Posts: 569
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:17 am Reply with quote
CCTakato wrote:
Or maybe they had to wait until after they went out of print before Takeuchi could start blocking them. But it's clear that the exclusion of episode 67 on the R set shows Takeuchi had some influence of control over the show at that point.

Yeah I think we can agree here. It sounds like what happened was after the original licensing deals expired from the 90's and early 2000's, Naoko took over and began to rule with an iron fist. I guess my point originally was pre 2003 it sounded more like Toei's decision to not release Stars. I do remember reading that Naoko hated Stars because of the confusion it caused. I.E. in the manga the Starlights were women that crossdressed as guys, vs. in the anime they used magic or w/e to actually change into guys. IIRC Naoko was adamant that only women could be Senshi. Weird change.

Just speculation but I think Toei began to cow tow to her more in order to get approval for new stuff (Live Action, Crystal, more musicals). What is really weird is as you point out Episode 67 was missing on the R set, but the original set had all the episodes that were missing from the DiC dub (like 45&46 being a two parter instead of 1 episode). Confusing!

leafy sea dragon wrote:
Similarly, I'd say that if a work is full of punny names, it'd be reasonable to change the names to puns in the language being translated into

I agree; especially if the English translation is correcting Japan's butchering of an English pun or reference >.> Case in point: there's a game called GrimGrimoire. The MC is named Lillet Blan, in reference to the wine (all GG characters are named after alchohols). The Japanese version had her named Lilit Blaw lol. Kinda reminds me of the Gundam thing insisting Frau should be Frow. Or Anno insisting on calling Eva pilots children (plural). I.E. Shinji was the third children. lmao
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NJ_



Joined: 31 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:51 pm Reply with quote
BodaciousSpacePirate wrote:
Teknoman

I honestly don't remember anything about UPN Kids' dub of Teknoman other than "it happened".


Then why bring it up as a "untouched" dub in the first place?

The Teknoman dub had changes as well, one being music because it was Saban, the other being names and the third was one of the characters being changed to a woman because he was a gay cross-dresser in the original. There was also 2 versions of this dub, the US version on UPN Kids which lasted 26 episodes before getting cancelled and the international version which aired in the UK and Australia & lasted the entire run with 43 episodes (with 6 episodes getting cut, 4 of which were recaps) and it was the latter dub that Media Blasters released, along with subbed Tekkaman Blade, back when they had the DVD license.
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BodaciousSpacePirate
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:09 pm Reply with quote
NJ_ wrote:
Then why bring it up as a "untouched" dub in the first place?

The Teknoman dub had changes as well, one being music because it was Saban, the other being names and the third was one of the characters being changed to a woman because he was a gay cross-dresser in the original. There was also 2 versions of this dub, the US version on UPN Kids which lasted 26 episodes before getting cancelled and the international version which aired in the UK and Australia & lasted the entire run with 43 episodes (with 6 episodes getting cut, 4 of which were recaps) and it was the latter dub that Media Blasters released, along with subbed Tekkaman Blade, back when they had the DVD license.


I remember seeing a few episodes of this at a con about a decade ago, and the general consensus of the room was that it was "much better than the last time a Tekkaman show came to America"... but like I said, that's about the only thing I manage to recall. I stand corrected.

I just watched the clip you linked to, and good lord, how bad must previous Tekkaman dubs have been in order for people to consider this an improvement?
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NJ_



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:53 pm Reply with quote
BodaciousSpacePirate wrote:
I remember seeing a few episodes of this at a con about a decade ago, and the general consensus of the room was that it was "much better than the last time a Tekkaman show came to America"... but like I said, that's about the only thing I manage to recall. I stand corrected.

I just watched the clip you linked to, and good lord, how bad must previous Tekkaman dubs have been in order for people to consider this an improvement?


Sounds like they were comparing it with the William Winckler dub of the original Tekkaman. Not sure if anything was cut or changed there but I do know that it was cancelled after 13 episodes and had very cheesy voice acting. Laughing
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:06 pm Reply with quote
NJ_ wrote:
The Teknoman dub had changes as well, one being music because it was Saban, the other being names and the third was one of the characters being changed to a woman because he was a gay cross-dresser in the original.


That reminds me: There was a similar change to Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, where the character Vivian was changed from an extremely effeminate male to a female when localized over, and there wasn't any uproar that I could recall.

Either times have changed, or anime fans are a lot more sensitive to this sort of thing than Mario fans.
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Lili-Hime



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:46 pm Reply with quote
@ Leafy Sea Dragon
I still can't see Zoicite as male... damn DiC dub lol
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ninjamitsuki



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:19 pm Reply with quote
Didn't Saban do Digimon? Who's to say Glitter Force will even be that bad? Maybe the characters will still be Japanese and have easier to pronounce nicknames, and the violence would be kept intact... Probably a lot of terrible puns, though.
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Kadmos1



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:53 pm Reply with quote
ninjamitsuki wrote:
Didn't Saban do Digimon? Who's to say Glitter Force will even be that bad? Maybe the characters will still be Japanese and have easier to pronounce nicknames, and the violence would be kept intact... Probably a lot of terrible puns, though.


Yes, Saban and Disney have both owned Digimon. Heck, perhaps outside of Power Rangers, Digimon was Saban's biggest success. If they could have kept the Digimon Fusion going by streaming it on Hulu or YouTube, then maybe there could have been less censorship.
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louis6578



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:22 pm Reply with quote
Speaking of companies being hesitant to simply release uncut dubs of shows that were butchered... what about dubs from the 90's that were clearly awful and need a redub that never seem to get one upon re-release?

Lain and Escaflowne I can get behind, because I admit that they were just sort of the norm for the time, but what about Revolutionary Girl Utena and Cardcaptor Sakura? When those were re-released, the awful dubs stayed in tact with no option to switch to a better English version. It's not as though Utena is super underground or anything. Was Bang Zoom unwilling?
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EricJ2



Joined: 01 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:28 pm Reply with quote
Lili-Hime wrote:
@ Leafy Sea Dragon
I still can't see Zoicite as male... damn DiC dub lol


I preferred Zoicite as a female in the DiC dub--Made "her" seem more like the usual more ruthless token female member who's scheming to break the glass ceiling on her own, for obsessive love of the main villain.
(Like Harley Quinn, Mystique, or the crazy girl on Death Note.)
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Ali07



Joined: 01 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:31 am Reply with quote
BadNewsBlues wrote:
Worst possible scenario with the most likely outcome.

Laughing Of course you going with the worst possible scenario will give you the outcome you'd want. A reasonable/more realistic scenario wouldn't lead to the exact outcome you're after, and wouldn't back up your argument as strongly.

What other reason would you have gone for the worst possible scenario for?

I'm still waiting for how "true to the source dubs" will save these hypothetical children that have found themselves in the worst possible scenario you can think of.
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