Forum - View topicThe X Button - Vanishing Point
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mewpudding101
Industry Insider
 Posts: 2206 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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I'm really sick of people labeling women as "social justice warriors" and "moral warriors" and "feminazis" and putting the blame of anything in the industry on them. It's really toxic.
I'm absolutely for women's rights in video gaming, as a gamer since youth. I can even be called a feminist. But that doesn't mean I'm going to take all your happiness eat your children or something. Throwing the blame on a group of people who aren't even an organization like this is really childish and pretty disheartening. Makes me sad to work in the video game industry and be thought of like this. |
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WEL
Posts: 14 |
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"Shonen Jump Weekly'ism" is spreading like cancer and killing everything in its way.
But for starters, every DOAX game has sold the best in USA than in any other market. Then the fact that the Asian version will have English subs. Based on these 2 things alone the pendulum swings more on the side of the game not being localized due to the new age puritans of the left, aka, "Shonen Jump Weekly's". ----- edit: the fact that this forum itself is programmed to replace "Shonen Jump Weekly" to "a person I disagree with", it's prove enough of how cancerous they are to every and any community. Last edited by WEL on Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:01 am; edited 5 times in total |
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whiskeyii
 Posts: 2245 |
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I admit, DLC is an issue I'd have never thought of. In that case, I guess you'd have to hope for something like DOA5's Last Round where the DLC comes bundled with the main game. Though, to be fair, I can't tell if Last Round was spurred on by surprisingly good sales or what; I'm way outside of fighting game communities. But it sounds like a rough equivalent of triple-A company "Game of the Year" editions for games that sell very well. |
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H. Guderian
Posts: 1255 |
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So they have been hassled in the past, and predicted future hassle. Isn't that what being pressured is? Is this new volleyball game actually any good? yes? No? One person over at the Mary Sue attacked the game, and said it was a fighting game. The main franchise is, yes, but not this game. And that kind of alarmism is why the game isn't even coming over here. Even if this was the only fanservice game to come out the entire year it would be attacked all the same. These people are then suddenly shocked when others are skeptical of their morally superior tone. Crying wolf in the name of equality is starting to backfire. Equality is a great thing, but in this aspect try to be for Positive Equality, and not Negative. If there's a fanservice game with women in it, why not give everyone else a fanservicey sports game? Something is always gonna be unfavorable or offensive to someone, so trying to keep taking this things away is a rat race you really can't win.
That's a gender neutral term. Any gender can be that. Some people in that category embrace it, some feel it is an unworkable insult. So once again it is a term that no matter how you use it, someone's gonna get angry. And on the internet rather neutral text can sound very hostile. |
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nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5120 |
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Am I going to actually have to go and delete posts? (WEL, I'm looking straight at you.) H. Guderian, your post is not helpful.
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Enner
 Posts: 91 |
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I think the person would say the decision was sound if Koei-Tecmo ran their numbers and didn't think it was worth it. Though since we're taking the jumbled words of the Team Ninja community manager at face value, they seem to have a dire read of the western market for DOAX3. Which they shouldn't, as you and the author of The X Button have demonstrated with your above mentioned bafflement. Though according to some previous posters, my interpretation of that section of The X Button is very different. (Ah, it's beautiful. The lack of context around the Facebook posts means anyone can interpret anything they want from it.) This whole DOAX3 circus has been a weird thing to follow. Since there is going to be an English-language option in the Asia version, K-T was thinking about the English-language market. It is important to keep in mind that there is still a lot of work and money to be done after that with an English dub, ratings submission, QA, packaging, shipping, and other stuff for a USA retail release. While some would like to discount the cost of full localization and release, I think reality vastly defers. Now maybe you can get away with a Japanese-voice-overs-only release for GameStop. I've been assuming that you can't get away with that with Best Buy, Target, Walmart, etc., though I would like to know if that isn't the case anymore. Of course, the business ruminations are moot when I take the CM's posts at face value. That goes in to the spiraling thought circles of the TM CM misinterpreting my interpretation of the heated discussion of the representation of women in our beloved video games. I don't think the supposed bogeywomen ever intend to block games from being made or released, but rather to poke at them (jokingly, snarkly, scathingly) and say their critical thoughts on them. However, some very strongly disagree with my assessment. And that is fine. On the angle of "say that again when this happens to a game you like!": I've arrogantly dismissed this with, "for the foreseeable future, I think the odds of this happening for the types of games I like are vastly in my favor." Putting it through a thought experiment, I put a game I would to see an official release through this scenario. I would really like to see and purchase an official English release of Fate/Stay Night someday. All of it! If only the Realta Nua version (or even further changed version) was available because the localization company... "disagreed" with the sex scenes, I'd be disappointed but would still purchase because I am hopeless (I guess this is what is happening with me with Xenoblade Chronicles X and the game's localization edits [even those beyond the headline grabbers]). If an English-language was made but not available on any easily accessible store front (manga gamer is the only one I can think of), I'll be very frustrated! If for some bizarre reason an English-language version was made but was not purchasable with US credit/debit cards, I'll be extremely frustrated! I guess this is an issue of faith in the future. Maybe I have too much faith in this hypothetical F/SN scenario that I will get the product I want or mostly what I want. I take it that those against censorship would argue that any compromise (beyond the agreed compromise of an English translation) is unacceptable. Personally, I can't help but be more flexible in a game I want. Oh! I already have my in-practice answer to the "say that again when this happens to a game you like" scenario in Xenoblade Chronicles X. I'm disappointed or indifferent to the actual and rumored changes, but I'm still buying it because I am hopelessly in love with the prospect of exploring and surviving the planet Mira. |
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whiskeyii
Posts: 2245 |
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Trying really hard to not retread over previous arguments.
Have they (Tecmo) been hassled? I don't know. I know Play-Asia got a lot of flack for posting an inflammatory tweet, but maybe that was to drum up sales. I can only recall that the reviews of DOAX2 were not very favorable (lack of content and fun mini-games, kind of creepy features like taking pictures and the stripper pole), but that was back in, what, the mid-2000s? The industry overall has changed a lot since then. But no, I don't personally think they were pressured. I think they recognized that the US wasn't a viable market for this game. I don't think any particular group heckled them into not localizing it here.
I can't quite tell if this is addressed to me personally or if it's a general sort of statement, but I don't mind fanservice so long as it's sex-positive and not demeaning. The anime version of Monster Musume springs to mind as something I few as a positive form of fanservice. DOA, especially the Extreme spin-offs, has a more "wink wink nudge nudge" approach, and tends to feel (to me) as sleazier, mostly because both the camera bit and the stripper pole feel slightly more...coercive? Rather than the ladies enthusiastically approaching it with a "Yes! I wanna' be sexy for you!" kind of attitude. Though, to be totally fair, my biases are based off of DOAX2. DOAX3 may have gone for a totally different approach to fanservice; I don't know. |
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Trypticon
 Posts: 80 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada |
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I’d like to start off by saying I’m really not much of a gaming person; I hardly play any games let alone play them. The most gaming I’ve done recently is Tetris during my lunch and coffee breaks at work, but apparently depending on who you ask, it doesn’t count. With that said, I can’t really say if my opinion has any credibility in the matter, all I can do is tell it as I see it, how I feel about it as an individual and a consumer. For clarity though, I’ve always been a fan of the DOA and Ninja Gaiden franchises, they’re the only games I buy. At all, and even then I don’t play them too often.
So, I want to talk about this DOAX 3 baloney that’s going on; I’m going to start by saying I disagree with the author’s opinion on the game itself. I don’t think the game is sexist overall; I usually don’t equate sexy with sexist, and this game is an example; this carries over to how I feel about anime as well. I do agree that there are aspects of it that I would consider sexist and depending upon the player’s choices, it can get pretty blah. For the most part though, it’s nothing more than a glamorized sports game. I do like the game; I think it’s a good game overall; yes, it does have problems and there are certain things I’d like to see implemented into the game. I’m not going to describe the entire game because I’m not here to write a review, but there are some aspects I want to bring up. The volleyball gameplay has a nice, fluid, natural, older style feel and the overall setup makes it enjoyable and fun to play. I also like that you earn money for your character and you can shop for swimwear (which ranges from more modest to pretty salacious), accessories (like glasses, shoes, hats, whatever) and clothing (more choices in the second one). Another cool feature is you can import your own music over and listen to whatever you want. I’m not sure if this new game will have that, but it would be cool if they do. On the second DOAX there’s boat racing and that’s really cool; it’s that sort of interactive thing I want to see more of on these. Now my issues with the game, while I have a few, don’t ruin the game in any way as I spent an overwhelming majority of the time playing the volleyball on it. However, my issues are things like tug of war, butt battle and pool jump; aside from being pointless, they’re awkward to play and, for me, just no fun; which is why I only tried them out to just see what they were. It’s on these mini games where I do agree that this game crosses into sexist territory for a few reasons. Obviously the games aren’t really sport games and are filler for titillation; nothing else. At least with the volleyball, since it’s an actual sports game during these times, it has way more going for it than sensuality. The second reason I take issue with some of these mini games is while it’s hard enough to believe the characters of DOA would play volleyball against each other; the game can justify it on some narrative level and connect it to the characters behaviors and development. But no matter how much they try, I just can’t suspend my disbelief that these characters would bump rear ends with each other at a pool; well, maybe a couple of the characters would, but for the most part with the other characters, it can’t be justified on any level. One of my biggest problems though is how there’s that really cool opening animation with all the characters chilling out on the island doing all kinds of fun stuff. I recall seeing the characters doing things like roller blading and biking; just going around the island and such; why not lose the lame ass mini games and have biking and roller blade courses or races? They did it with the boats and it’s pretty neat, and it’s still sexy, but the point is that it’s more interactive and engaging. Not only that, but you’d actually get to see areas on the island, have some cool environments and stuff like that. What I’m getting at is that the game can still be sexy and all, but amp up the sports element; make all the games in it like the volleyball; interesting, fast paced, engaging and challenging. There’s also the casino you can play, but I’m pretty indifferent to it. So, that brings us to the controversy that’s happening. When I first heard of it, yeah, I’ll admit, I was pretty angry, even finding myself jumping to conclusions and playing the blame game. However, once I took some time to think it over, there are a few things to consider. First off all; there has been no campaign, as far as I know, to prohibit DOAX 3 from being released. I know people want to get angry and they want to blame someone, I understand that; it’s the easy thing to do, but we need to think about this rationally; Tecmo/Koei are voluntarily not giving this game a release for the North American and European markets; nobody has openly set out to stop them. I need to make that much clear. Second; take what is said with a grain of salt; perhaps Tecmo/Koei are concerned about how well the game will perform commercially in other markets and they’re just using what’s going on and what’s happened as an excuse. Third; and maybe what Tecmo/Koei are saying is true, maybe they’re scared of the way things are going in other markets and don’t want to have an exclusive release for said markets. But before everyone wants to jump up and blame the “Shonen Jump Weekly” boogeyman, just remember; it takes two to tango and it takes far more than a group of people with contrary opinions to transform a community into a hostile environment. What I mean is that there has been a failure to listen, a need to blame and a mutual lack of respect for people's opinions and perspectives. I’ve sat and watched people insult each other and then I get to hear about people doing some pretty awful things to each other. This is why I don’t want any part of it and why I’m glad I’m not heavily into gaming. It just seems like it’s at the point where it’s terrifying to have and express an opinion because no matter how you feel about it, no matter how civil you want to be, you’re “wrong” no matter what. It’s pretty bad when not having an opinion, or having your own opinion and not wanting to partake in anything is “wrong.” Yeah, when I think about it, I can’t say I blame Tecmo/Koei for this decision. To be honest, I’m pretty apprehensive about even posting this little write up I have, but whatever I guess. Lastly; for people who do want DOAX 3; there are buying options available so it’s not the end of the world, no one has won or lost anything, the game is not prohibited here. I know because I placed an order for it, because I like the franchise, I think it’s a fun game; not to make a statement or spite anyone. To be honest though, with what’s happened on social media, it does make me wonder if they’re using all that’s happened to their advantage as a marketing tool. I did see that tweet from Play Asia that riled a lot of people up and nothing gets sales going like kicking a hornet’s nest and stirring up some controversy. At the end of the day, this is just how I feel about it, it’s my opinion, I’m not trying to step on anyone’s toes, most of this is me theorizing and I’m no expert. Last edited by Trypticon on Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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strawberry-kun
Posts: 301 |
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A full version with all the DLC seems unlikely. Last Round doesn't even include all of the DLC. I have DOA5 Last Round and still spent around $70 on DLC outfits. That's not even close to all of the DLC either. |
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Battle Cossack
 Posts: 87 Location: Bay Area, CA |
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I lol'd @ Wart's description. Good article this week!
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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It's filtered because it has lost all meaning and is now used solely by reactionaries like you as a snarl word for anyone left of Hitler. You made your bed, now lie in it. |
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Rensie
Posts: 251 |
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They already are heavy censored cause hysteria, trolls and bygots, so cant blame Tecmo to autoban their own game to avoid any futile controversy. I cant' blame them but i disagree, because it can cause a precedent and give these people more strenght. These people who care about social justice or trolls are just people not interested to play these games in the first place, their only purpose is to gain popularity for their websites and remove our freedom to choose what we can or not see. Games journalist dont' help at all and some are a true idiots that fuel this debate just to make more clicks. Anyway i like the fact that the game is available in the original form with the english subtitles added, i think that make games with english subs (both physical and DLC) and avoid any localization is the best way to make these trolls useless, and at the same time reduce expenditures and times needed for the release. |
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Paiprince
 Posts: 593 |
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Mods, better put Chagen on the watch list too. He's trying to instigate something. 
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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Wow, this discussion exploded during Thanksgiving. I can think of one video game that's Thanksgiving-related: The first stage of South Park 64 has your character fighting off droves of hostile cyborg turkeys. The stage was themed on the first Thanksgiving episode of the TV show.
Big has his fans. The reason Big was even playable in Sonic & SEGA All-Stars Racing is because its director, Steve Lycett, is one such fan. Admittedly, I did find some of Big's lines funny in that game, most notably "Hey...you can't do that!" when he's hit by someone's All-Star Move.
The difference there was that Sonic fans actually quite liked the Chao-raising, particularly for Chao competitions. I didn't like the Chao much, and I got berated by other Sonic fans for that. Usually, Sonic fans seem to dislike everything, but apparently, Chao are a common ground for a lot of them. Seems there are people who've chimed in since who played Sonic games BECAUSE of the Chao-raising. I know that when it was reduced to a fishtank-type minigame in Sonic Advance and outright nixed in Sonic Heroes, a lot of people cried afoul for removing something they really liked.
No one was whining about anything. The decision to not bring it to North America or Europe is completely pre-emptive.
We don't live in a free market. We live in a regulated market. Free markets would be stuff like the illegal drug trade or poaching. Blockades are exceedingly rare nowadays (and generally aren't used except in wartime situations), but tariffs exist as an anti-monopolistic measure on a global scale: Different countries can produce the same goods at different prices (whether due to differences in local availability of raw materials, in price of labor, in business laws preventing particular methods of manufacture, in culture, or local economies--you can see the starkness in the prevalence of outsourcing), so as to protect a country from some other country that could otherwise run roughshod over the world in some particular industry (a major case being automobiles). Tariffs are also used to shield a country as it recovers economically by encouraging (but not requiring) a country's populace to buy domestically-produced goods, which was commonplace after World War II.
I should also say that I VERY RARELY see that term used in anything not at least tangentially related to video games, which gives me the impression that the people labeled as such aren't really a dominating force in anything. Rather, I would definitely agree with you in that culture is changing to where equal treatment of both sexes are being applied to mass media. Whenever this happens, there will be people uncomfortable with it. It happened with American comic books, for instance. The difference seems to be that the video game business seems to be tackling the issue head-on whereas the American comic book business retreated into a niche (and becaome even more sexualized in its artwork than before). American comic books are the only case I can find of a mass medium that was male-dominated become MORE male-dominated after criticism as such though. (However, said audience seems to have mellowed out a lot over the past few decades, and the American comic book fans I've met recently have been very nice people and want more women in the hobby.)
You know, that's something I never really thought much: What I think makes some suggestive content uncomfortable and some others perfectly fine with me is agency, and I'd bet this is the same with a lot of other people. Characters like Bayonetta and Elvira I don't get bothered with at all, because they are the ones who are flaunting themselves and are in control. In other words, they chose to wear revealing clothing, speak double entendres knowing full well what they mean, and are depicted as intelligent and quick. It's where the characters are put into compromising, embarrassing situations or are subjected to the male gaze oblivious to it all is where it's uncomfortable.
This is why, I believe, the Extreme Beach Volleyball sub-series is seen as sexist: Roller blading and biking are not as titillating as the existing mini-games. The decision to keep those mini-games and not add in more gameplay-oriented things as you describe, as well as the photography sessions and the just-watching-the-girls-on-the-beach aspects are pretty voyeuristic. Hence, the game's overall structure when not volleyball creates the impression that the game lives at least partially on sex appeal. There's also the lack of male characters and how the sub-series has been consistently marketed in all regions for its sex appeal rather than its gameplay. If it was volleyball, roller blading, biking, and other normal beach-related sports and there was no tug-of-rope, butt-bumping, pole-dancing, photos, and eye-candy mode, I don't think it would be nearly as accused of sexism as it is, even if it kept the clothes-customization. Contrast this to Rumble Roses, which also has an all-female cast and is sexualized to a pretty high degree, but it doesn't get nearly as much controversy because the game is focused on the wrestling, and advertising for it focuses on the gameplay with its sexual content being secondary. (And probably because most of the characters have that agency I mentioned earlier whereas the DOA characters tend to be submissive and quiet.) |
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Rensie
Posts: 251 |
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There is nothing wrong for a game, that is a piece of art, to be sexist, objectify characters, do violence on characters or whatever you want, you know is a game with fictional characters that don't have human rights, they are polygons with some texture over, and you can objectify and sexualize them as much as you want. The problem here are these trolls (or Shonen Jump Weekly) that make a problem where there isn't, spread hate and hysteria, and force companies to censor their own games to avoid media attention (media and journalist take advantage of these events just to gain attention and more clicks). |
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