Forum - View topicSword Art Online: What makes it SEEM so bad?
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Alcyon
Posts: 5 |
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Hmm, I'll talk about the first 14 episodes. The rest of the first season doesn't make sense after the first game.
I'm a "old" gamer, I'm 34 and I started playing video game more than 20 years ago. the author played "old" MMO's, or even MUD's, before WOW and the new generation of "theme park MMO", and the settings in Sword Art Online are a perfect reflection of this, and this is why the first arc is brilliant. 1) The level matters, A LOT. I remember when I was playing Aardwolf, one of the most played MUD's at that time. There was 201 levels (+ bonus if you restart from level 1, etc but let's forget this for now) but a difference of 20 levels was REALLY big, you could easily win a 1v3 fight. With a difference of 40 levels (out of 201, I need to say it again), they couldn't even scratch the higher player. When Kirito fights a guild of low level players, in a MMO, the situation would be close, if not identical. This is how MMO's are working, even now : in FFXIV, when the level cap went from 50 to 60, our damage almost tripled and our HP double (a bit more). The poer curve is crazy, but SAO got it right. Not like the .hack//sign (I love it, but the game is everything but a MMO). 2) On the other hand, we don't have to be reminded every 5 minutes how MMO's are working. There is a few moments when they explain it, but not in details like Log Horizon (and I always found these moments really boring). I know how a raid works, for Christ's Sake ! On this topic, we can see a difference between Log Horizon and SAO : Log Horizon is based on the "current" generation of MMO's, SAO on the "old" generation. 3) Something different is reallt different from the MMO's, in SAO, some "bosses" are unique (the boss floors) and can only be defeated once. This is crazy, but we always dreamed of playing a game and having an impact on it. And SAO's situation (10K new players trapped in hardcore mode) was a perfect setting to create this kind of game. In the current games, everybody would have to beat a boss floor to reach the next floor, which is easy to understand : if SAO was a "real" game, after a while, all the bosses would be dead, and the new players would never have a chance to fight them. But there isn't any new player in SAO 
4) Kirito seems OP, because in any real game, he would seem OP. Really. His level is one of the highest in the game and most of the episodes are "Kirito helping low level players" and only a few are battles against the bosses. But this happens every day in WOW when a good (or even only decent) players raids with a guild of "bad" players, he seems "OP" even if he's far behind the top guilds. Or in sport, when the best player in your team seems so strong, because you're playing in the 7th level (our of 10) and he's good enough to play at the 5th level. I did a few "races" (everybody starts naked at level 1 and the player who gained the highest amount of XP after, let's say 2 hours, win) in Path of Exile. In a few of them, I finished in the top 30 (out of two thousands of players) with something like half their amount of XP of the 10th. To me, the 10th seems OP, but there are 9 players stronger. I watched a few streams of the top players, Kirito seems a newbie next to them. 5) The time needed by the players to pass the floors is really accurate. after the first episode, I was afraid that they would defeat the game in a few weeks/months. But no ! In many "old" MMo's, you needed YEARS of levelling to reach the max level. And in a game like Path of Exile (not really a MMO, more like Diablo, but still close enough) the first player to reach level 100 in hardcore needed more than 1400h of play, 18 months after the launch. The 9th player to reach max level (and not in Hardcore) needed 563 days (there is a topic on reddit about it). We could argue about the first month, but you can take it this way : you're trapped in a MMO, with a bunch of strangers and if you die there, you die IRL, what will you do ? Some will level, but many will stay in towns and hope for a safety, but it will take time to create the first organizations, spread the informations, etc. 6) When an episode starts with "6 months have passed", I was thinking "[expletive] COOL !" : we don't have to deal with Kirito levelling, and I REALLY liked this. Levelling in this game of game is tedious. A mob, you use a few skills, the mob dies, next mob. for hours/days. If you do it in Hardcore, you will balance the risk/reward, and their levelling was (probably) bashing some low level mobs again, and again. We have a few details when Kirito and Asuna are on the 74th floor. 7) On that floor, Kirito doesn't "solo" the boss. The Army was fighting it for a decent period of time, and from the previous boss, this is probably that the bosses unlock a new ability when they have low HP. My guess is that the Army did most of the job, the boss unlocked a new set of abilities and they almost wiped. if they were around level 80 (Kirito was 96 on the next floor, we can assume that he was 95 at that time), Kirito being able to do something like 20% alone when 12 lower level players did 80% is really close of the reality. 7) In episode 10, we learn that the Army were camping on the best hunting spots, which is what was happening in the "old" MMO's. the thing about the "taxes" is a bit different, in many MMO, guilds have a tax for their member, but not outside, but if they were camping, they could have put a tax system without problem. We also learn that they were away from the top levels for a while, so having their best players at level 80 (or even less) is highly plausible. I could continue all day, but SAO describes really well the World of the "old" MMO's without soending time to explain it. The settings is almost perfect IMHO. Now the story is the "usual" teenager without friend saving the World while making friends and finding his love. Really unnimaginative, but not bad. But again, with this settings, I really like it. About the Nerve Gear, the explanation isn't impossible. Really ! It has some flaws, still. Did you know that you can create, at home, a few watts lazer and burn paper ? All it needs is a backdoor in the software to be able to force a big burst of energy. We are in a futuristic Japan, but we can easily assume that the Nerve Gear needs a good amount of energy to work, and we would probably need better batteries, but nothing impossible. Also, the current console's technology is secret for months after their release, it wouldn't be hard to believe that a high-tech device wasn't carefully checked by the governement. The old TV had enough power to kill someone .... Making it almost impossible to remove it without activating a failsafe isn't impossible, this is similar to a timed bomb and we are not in the movie where they need to cut the red or green wire, and SAO could be protected by a good security system, like the RSA now, a computer trying to hack it needs millions of years. Also, nobody said that they never tried to remove it, but I guess that the government cannot do it without the approbacy of the family, and could you accept the risk for a member of your family ? Some probably accepted, but I guss that they failed. And the legal issues are complicated. Now, a little issue : how could the device fry your brain in a few seconds (the time needed to force remove it) ? It could simply target a small area in the brain, this isn't really difficult. The only real issue about the Nerve Gear is "how do you does it simulate everything so well". But that's another problem. Long story short : the device seems too perfect, but the power needed to fry an important part of your brain isn't that big, it can easily found in most of our current tech, a failsafe isn't impossible, secured servers are possible and most families refused to take the risk of killing their beloved. Now about why some people hate SAO ? I don't know. they don't like something popular ? They don't like the "old" MMO's ? They don't like the "usual introvert teenager saving the world while making friend and find love" ? I don't even care
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Key word again is fictional. An author can write whatever background he wants, tweak the rules in whatever way he wants to make the character succeed. People like professional sports because there's nothing fictional about it. It's actual human excellence and not a self-insert power fantasy. You can find a dime and a dozen Kiritos in a short trip to fanfiction.net and people picked that up very fast. Tbh I don't think he's a Gary Stu. He's just a boring by the numbers protagonist with odds stacked in his favour to finish the story in a single novel. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13224 |
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And steroids. Lots of steroids. And the occasional deflated balls. We're talking about fictional media here, so the fact that its fictional does not discredit anything in the discussion. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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I'm addressing the analogy Theron made so my argument stands, they're not comparable in any way except the overall purpose to entertain us, that for me professional sports succeed in and Kirito doesn't exactly for the reason I explained. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18185 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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So by this logic, stories about fictional pro athletes are completely worthless because writers can just designate them as being however good they want them to be?
Wow, that's one hell of a slippery slope you have set up there, especially if you start extending that into other occupations/interest realms. |
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Chiibi
 Posts: 4828 |
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So I just reread Silica's story in the official release by Yen Press. While the anime gives the impression that she's just a silly little girl with a crush on the first guy who sweeps her off her feet, the novel gives us way more details like how afraid this thirteen-year-old is of creepy guys who keep bothering her to join their parties and tries to avoid all men in general until she meets Kirito, who reminds her of her father and she finds comfort in him because of that, along with his calming voice and demeanor.
The chapter where they go to the Hill of Memories explains that "Silica did most of the work". Kirito only gives her tips and some equipment to make her attacks more effective. Things like this are important! She also does not walk out in her panties; they threw that in there just to be funny. Albeit, it kinda was but it makes her look more air-headed and childish than she is supposed to be. Last edited by Chiibi on Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Stories about fictional athletes are generally about their rise to the top paralleled by their personal growth. They're coming of age stories. Again you get a different satisfaction out of them than watching a Messi or a Federer play. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4828 |
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Yes, yes, we all know Kirito is good at his job but so what?
It's something different and I'd rather watch someone who is good at their job compared to someone whining about how bad they are at things. .......that's why every time I see a capable magical girl who knows what she is doing, I freaking cheer. |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7983 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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I also find competent characters who have the skills to win very refreshing.
As for Sword Art Online, calling a show with an average ranking of "Excellent" and a place within the top 100 a bad show just does not compute. In most cases it's just an excuse to hate on something popular. I can understand the argument about not liking the characters, but that's the viewer's problem. It's not something the show did wrong, but people blame it anyway. Honestly, my only beef with the show is the second half of the first season is a little weak compared to the great first half. Last edited by Kruszer on Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:21 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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You want a show with a competent lead, watch Irregular at Magic High School.
Though unlike SAO, whose protag is powerful as a consequence of the story, Mahouka's story is a consequence of the protag's power. |
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Kruszer
Posts: 7983 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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Already seen it, it's a great show too. Rated both shows excellent and own both. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4828 |
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lolno. The fact that every single character praises him left and right really disgusts me. People make "lord and savior" jokes about Tatsuya for a reason. Great OP though. Because LiSA. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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Meh, not much different from how everyone in-universe loves Kirito.
But I usually refrain from comparing the two since they're different kinds of characters. It does become more interesting later when all that admiration for Tatsuya spoiler[turns to fear because he's just too powerful] More to the topic at hand, the flaws of SAO are ones shared by a wide variety of series. But why is SAO demonized much more than those other shows? The popularity is definitely the primary factor. |
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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It's been touched on a bit here, but as a woman the biggest complaint I had with SOA was the treatment of the female characters. Asuna, as mentioned was inconsistent, she goes constantly from bad ass who handles herself to damsel in distress. I could handle Kirito not having any personality if the characters who surround him had well developed personalities, but when you get down to it they eventually fit into a cookie cutter mold where they fall at his feet.
That's why I think the Asuna focused portion of the anime is one of the most popular. There's no Kirito. They just focus on Asuna and who she is as a character, without him. The other biggy that pretty much made it so I wouldn't be going out of my way to watch more is it's handling of rape as a plot device. It'd just basically be Girl Who Likes Kirito is being threatened with rape, Kirito comes in the nick of time to save their virtue. First time I just rolled my eyes, but then it happened again in the 2nd season and it's just... really??? You can only repeat the same stuff so many times before it gets downright stupid and after the 2nd time I was done. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4828 |
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It kind of is.....but this is a script problem. Unless all the screenshots I saw of characters calling Tatsuya "amazing" were Photoshopped subtitles. The admiration for Kirito is shown instead of told so it's more tolerable.
Kirito absolutely does have a personality so I'm not sure why people complain that he doesn't. While the anime shows it to a lesser extent than the novels, it's still there. I can describe him as "calm and level-headed" until he snaps into a rage. When he's enraged, he goes insane and doesn't think before he acts so he's quite dangerous (I mean he tried to kill Sugou in the real world). At the same time, he has a playful side, a cowardly side, and a crybaby side. He also has a savior complex and puts the entire world on his shoulders....then he beats himself up about it when he fails. He has a hard time letting go of the past, as it was shown with Sachi's party and in the GGO arc, his past "crimes" continue to haunt him still. He still has social issues and absolutely HATES any type of attention. I could still write more about him and the fact that I can do that, I think proves enough that he is a complex, three-dimensional character. *Asuna was put into a situation she couldn't control in the latter half of the first season. Her badassness in SAO couldn't be exercised here because of how Sugou programmed the game. She did as well as anyone could do in that situation though. I liked the fact that she always kept a positive attitude and strong faith in the one she loves instead of just breaking down and crying all the time because she was apart from him. Ironically, Kirito did just that. Asuna is his rock. He's a strong fighter but weak-willed. Take away his waifu and he falls to pieces. I do fully 100% agree with you about the rape attempts and I think that's SAO's biggest flaw. If you removed those scenes, there would be a whole lot less hate. |
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