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All "Censorship" is wrong, even if it removes something extremely uncomfortable, apparentl




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Dessa



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 4438
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:08 am Reply with quote
So, with Fire Emblems Fates' English release on the horizon, official word has come down on a certain controversial support conversation in the Japanese version.

The contents of the conversation, as it has been explained to me, are marked under spoilers, both for spoiler warning and for trigger warning:
spoiler[A female character, who is in-game attracted to women, can get high support levels with the male main character. If you get the support high enough, it will trigger a scene in which the female character's drink is spiked, and then she suddenly is in love with him.]

Obviously, there are problems with this on many levels. The two biggest complaints I've seen of this, which I agree with, is that it seems to support spoiler[the use of date-rape drugs (whatever spiked her drink that made her interested in the male character)] and spoiler[anti-gay conversion, since she apparently is dedicated to the male character after this, after being only interested in women prior].

Nintendo's solution, for both the American and European releases, was to remove the scene entirely (it's unknown if there will be a different scene replacing it, as far as I'm aware). So, of course, fanboys are up in arms, decrying the "censorship" and demanding the scene be restored.

Personally, I'm not planning on getting the game (I'm protesting the "required to make a story-related choice before purchasing the game, and having to buy the game a second time to change your choice" build of the game, but that's another story), but I'm applauding their choice to remove this. Sure, they could have chosen (theoretically, I haven't seen the scene in question) to change the dialogue, rather than removing it completely. Maybe spoiler[she gets drunk and reveals that she's attracted to both men and women, and that she's attracted to the male MC], as an alternate, but I have no problem with their choice to remove it.

[Source: Nintendo Everything]
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KAKUROT321



Joined: 22 Jan 2016
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:28 pm Reply with quote
Absolutely ridiculous, if people can't understand Japanese culture or comedy that's on them. There should be a freedom of putting whatever you want in your content regardless who it offends, if you like the series your most likely not gonna give a damn about this scene and who cares about the people who aren't buying the game but want to complain? You have no place in the area and shouldn't care about it either. From a business perspective I don't even know why Nintendo themselves would care for such a thing, it has no connection to how it will effect game sales, unless many of the considerable buyers of the game are complaining. Here in America we make fun of so many things which is why many foreigners hate our country as a whole, but who does it effect? No one, so why should Japan be a suck up to our sensitive needs, if we'll blatantly would easily make fun of Hiroshima in our media? Once again we give other people reason to call us spoiled Americans. I can't speak for Europe though cause I wouldn't know.
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nobahn
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 5120
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:19 pm Reply with quote
Folks, do have a care; one thread has already been locked, and if folks go down the path being trod by Wilfredo Armando Claudio, then this thread could very well end up being locked as well.

Just a friendly heads up.

EDIT:Oops, made a mistake; I meant KAKUROT321


Last edited by nobahn on Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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KAKUROT321



Joined: 22 Jan 2016
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:53 pm Reply with quote
nobahn wrote:
Folks, do have a care; one thread has already been locked, and if folks go down the path being trod by Wilfredo Armando Claudio, then this thread could very well end up being locked as well.

Just a friendly heads up.


Well thanks, but I'll leave everything up to the site.
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Guile



Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 595
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:33 pm Reply with quote
KAKAROT321 wrote:
I can't speak for Europe though cause I wouldn't know.


Europe is made up a lot of different cultures and countries compared to America, but one thing I can say is that European markets generally get the shaft when it comes to Nintendo games, at least recently. Before we would have our own localization, but for some games Nintendo of Europe is either unwilling to finance or put in the effort to make an entirely new localization so we get whatever America did which includes any censorship. Other times we get our own localization which keeps in content then America censored out. Unfortunately, in this case it looks like the European market will suffer due to America's more conservative views which is disappointing.

I don't support censorship in any form especially when it comes to something being uncomfortable because that is entirely subjective. I especially don't like when you see hypocrisy like gaming sites who praise this kind of censorship and say a company has the right to do it as an excuse, yet when Cartoon Network censored a problematic scene in Steven Universe they were the first ones they complain. Censorship is censorship, you have to support all of it or none of it because it can be used by either side of the argument. It's also weird video game websites I would talk about children's cartoons in the first place
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:31 am Reply with quote
I've come to the conclusion that the knee-jerk opposition to so called "censorship" (read: a company voluntarily changing their own product) that a lot of gamers have is just an outdated relic at this point. That response sorta made sense a couple console generations go. Back then, there was still a lot of pressure for games in the west to be family friendly. Hence, a lot of genuinely interesting, mature, or otherwise provocative stuff that you could get away with in Japan had to be cut in the west. That was a shame because by and large it made those games at least marginally worse. That's the key point that I think a lot of people never quite got though. There was never inherently anything wrong with a company making changes to their own product. That's just silly. Rather, these cuts were bad because they actually made the games worse at least on average. It was always a strictly pragmatic thing though.

Fast forward to modern day though and I don't actually think there is much of a pragmatic argument against these changes. The old status quo is dead and buried. Western games by and large are far more provocative than they used to be and there is little pressure against the kinds of content you used to see removed. The sky is pretty much the limit in terms of actual mature content in games. The only thing that really doesn't fly anymore is just the stuff that's downright gross and regressive. It's the sexualization of blatantly underage girls. It's the use of homosexuality as a punchline. It's stuff like that. That's really not a bad thing though. As I said, it's a pragmatic thing. If this is the kind of stuff we're generally going to see cut these days then bring on the cuts. They're only making the games in question better. If that's something the company releasing the game wants to do in the west then they're making the right call.

Guile wrote:
I don't support censorship in any form especially when it comes to something being uncomfortable because that is entirely subjective. I especially don't like when you see hypocrisy like gaming sites who praise this kind of censorship and say a company has the right to do it as an excuse, yet when Cartoon Network censored a problematic scene in Steven Universe they were the first ones they complain. Censorship is censorship, you have to support all of it or none of it because it can be used by either side of the argument. It's also weird video game websites I would talk about children's cartoons in the first place


To my knowledge, nobody at any point suggested that Cartoon Network doesn't have the right to change Steven Universe as they see fit. Rather, people opposed that Steven Universe change because of why it was changed. That's the whole point. There's nothing inherently wrong with a company changing their product as they see fit. That's their right. Whether a change merits criticism is dependent on what they're changing and why. If, as with the Steven Universe case, they're cutting out part of a scene because it has strong lesbian overtones...well that's just bullshit. There's nothing inappropriate or objectionable about homosexuality. On the other hand, the Fire Emblem scene in question has some seriously messed up aspects both in terms of gay conversion and drugging without consent. That's a pretty valid reason to make a change. I mean look, you're free to disagree here. Maybe you think there's nothing in the Fire Emblem scene that is objectionable. Or maybe you just categorically oppose all changes. Believing instead that they should be judged on a case by case basis is a perfectly consistent position though. There's nothing hypocritical about it. It's just a position you don't agree with.
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Stuart Smith



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 1298
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:46 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
All "Censorship" is wrong, even if it removes something extremely uncomfortable, apparently


Well, yes. Something being "uncomfortable" is one of the worst and most easily manipulated reasons to censor or ban something. Its just like obscenity laws in its all up to the individual with power, making it purely self-indulgent.

Looking at all the books people ban every year in schools shows us what happens when people trying to censor messages based on their own beliefs. Anti Christian messages, depicting teen sex, racial slurs, promoting Satanism, misogyny, excetera. The Fault in Our Stars, Paper Towns, Huckleberry Finn, The Giver. All considered uncomfortable and regressive by those who banned them. As far as that Cartoon Network show is concerned, they apparently found that uncomfortable and problematic so the appropriately localized it.

It doesn't affect me personally since I import games these days, and play fan translations for those I don't, but it's unfortunate for those unable to. Nintendo cares more about appealing to parents compared to other companies. At least most games remain uncensored, but Nintendo of America is a lot more conservative than most companies. We should probably be thankful 99% of licensed anime never has to worry about "uncomfortable content" being removed unless Saban or 4Kids nabs the license.

-Stuart Smith
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:34 am Reply with quote
Stuart Smith wrote:
Quote:
All "Censorship" is wrong, even if it removes something extremely uncomfortable, apparently


[Giant screed about banning books]

-Stuart Smith


See, this is why it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion about this.

"This isn't censorship. It's just a company willingly editing their own product. Nothing is being banned, suppressed, or made illegal."

>Discussion instantly devolves into giant pedantic screeds about how technically it still is censorship even though nothing is being banned.

"Okay. This is 'censorship' in a sense. But I don't really see what's problematic about so called 'censorship' of this sort."

>Discussion instantly devolves into giant hysterical screeds about government censorship and book banning.
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Stuart Smith



Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 1298
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:35 pm Reply with quote
School book bannings aren't done on the government level. Books are banned in schools based on the discretion of a school district's views, hense why discretion is the issue here. Just as with games and game companies. What may be taken out by one company could be left in buy another. Nintendo just happens to be one of the ones that pander to parents to keep their family friendly image. For example, showing a 13 year-old girl in a swimsuit was too risque for Nintendo, but Despair Girls had no problem with a teen groping minigame segment. They even lampshaded any complaints people might have had about it. Basically, to censor things based on uncomfortableness requires someone with power to be uncomfortable to begin with.

-Stuart Smith
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:02 pm Reply with quote
Stuart Smith wrote:
School book bannings aren't done on the government level. Books are banned in schools based on the discretion of a school district's views, hense why discretion is the issue here.


Putting aside the fact that public schools at least still are ostensibly government run institutions, you also evoked the specter of obscenity laws. That's what I was referring to first and foremost when I mentioned government censorship. You're not wrong though. Discretion is what is at issue here. That's precisely why your comment amounts to little more than empty fear-mongering though. All these cases you bring up involve things being censored at the discretion of some external authority with no connection to the actual work. Obviously that is objectionable. That has no bearing on what is happening here though. Obviously what gets included or not included in a game is going to be at the discretion of the company that produces that game.

Stuart Smith wrote:
For example, showing a 13 year-old girl in a swimsuit was too risque for Nintendo, but Despair Girls had no problem with a teen groping minigame segment.


Hey man, I'll tell you the same thing I told Guile. If you want to say that a specific change is bad because of what is being changed and why then that's fair enough. Personally, it is unfathomable to me how anyone could not think a minigame where you grope teenagers is gross and that a game wouldn't be much improved by having it cut. But again, you're free to disagree. My point right now is just that you can't categorically dismiss the idea of a company making changes to their own product with a bunch of hysterics about "censorship".
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faridania



Joined: 28 Jul 2015
Posts: 11
Location: London, United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:24 am Reply with quote
I don't see bad in removing or changing something in a scene since, company have no control about the limit age that should buy for their games. In addition, those companies are just complying from the law where their product will be distributed.
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Cam0



Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 4884
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:36 am Reply with quote
I'm kind of on neutral grounds on this. I'm not interested in that game whatsoever, but if I had to choose then I guess I'm more against removing it. I'm generally speaking the kind of guy who doesn't get disturbed easily. Like hey it's fiction, it can tell the kind of story it wants. And frankly that romance option sounds kind of intriguing. I'd rather have the content and choose whether I want to experience it than not have it at all. I think Nintendo could offer a patch or something to those fans who want this content, but then again Nintendo probably doesn't think that it's worth the effort.

If I was a fan of this game then my reaction would probably be something like "Hmph... oh well" and not "ARGH! CENSORSHIP! *raises pitchfork*"
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