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angelmcazares
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:59 pm Reply with quote
I suppose there is a reason why I am not a videophile because I never noticed computer/digital elements in Cowboy Bebop.

When I saw the headline for this article I thought that the question was going to refer to the Evangelion BD's, where apparently some scene(s) had to be digitally redone because the original cells were lost or damaged.
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Shiflan



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:05 pm Reply with quote
I'm of the opinion that the majority of this problem was simply that the CG technology was in its infancy back then. I can clearly recall the jarring distinction between the traditional cel animation and the CG being obvious even back when these shows were first coming out. Specifically, I can think of:
-Bubblegum Crisis 2040 (laserdisc)
-Initial D (VHS & DVD)
-Cowboy Bebop (DVD)
-Vandred (DVD)
-Macross plus (laserdisc)
-Ruroni Kenshin "Trust and Betrayal" (laserdisc)

I don't think the media mattered much (unless you were watching Nth generation fansubs on VHS). Even on old-school laserdisc it was quite jarring.

I look at it a lot like the 3D lighting effects that were big in video games right when 3D hardware accelelration first started becoming popular (back in the days of the original "Voodoo card"). At first the colored lighting and other effects were vary garish. Then as time progressed the technology improved and the artists got better at working with it so it became much less jarring.
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Aphasial
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:14 pm Reply with quote
Was that what was going on during the dance scene in the Utena movie? In an otherwise gorgeously and meticulously well-done movie, Anthy seems pretty clearly off-model here to me [edit: transition at the blackout at 0:29], and with coloring and detail that just felt a little... yeah, off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJT5i5NmONc


Last edited by Aphasial on Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:49 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Shiflan



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:23 pm Reply with quote
Aphasial wrote:
Was what was going on during the dance scene in the Utena movie?


It looks to me like a different group of animators did that scene, rather than it being the difference between CG and traditional animation. (Though I may well be wrong, it's been many years since I watched that movie).

It is my understanding that this sort of thing happens fairly often: a key scene (or perhaps even certain episodes out of a TV series) often look "off" because they were outsourced to a different group of animators than those who did the main body of the work.
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Paiprince



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:56 pm Reply with quote
Here's another example of 90's anime dabbling with digital effects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XphjF-fHZkM

It looks mostly nice, but if you pay close attention at 0:19 and 0:32, you can see that the Nadesico ship looks like it's just shifting through space via an overlay.
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Shiflan



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:02 pm Reply with quote
I don't know how the Nadesico opening was done, but both of those scenes you mentioned could easily have been done with standard methods. Keep the background cel fixed in place while the one with the ship on it was moved.

A better example of obvious CG would be in the logo at a 0:08-0:13

Another great example is the city/buildings in the opening of Bubblegum Crash.
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MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:15 pm Reply with quote
@Shiflan I don't think they were talking about 3D CG, instead more common elements like effects; light, water, blending etc. Stuff that blended in with the rest of the show when in low res, but are noticeable in HD. In Jin-Roh for example the water in the sewers is a 2D effect, and back on VHS it may of been hard to make out. But on Blu-Ray it is very obvious that it is not a drawing.
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MarshalBanana



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:19 pm Reply with quote
Shiflan wrote:
Another great example is the city/buildings in the opening of Bubblegum Crash.
Really? this opening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQgq7465rz0
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TonyTonyChopper



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:36 pm Reply with quote
Still i'm just not to found of digipaint as compared to cell i don't care for most of those flashy looking effects ...some of them look dumb to me i think Osamu Dezaki like stuff looks 20 times beter them most of the digital stuff.
And a lot of these sesonal anime have this child-ish art style to them while older stuff seems to have much more charachter to me.
Most digital stuff in terms of art style all just blends together to me and don't get me started on GGI ...
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Swissman



Joined: 11 May 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:09 pm Reply with quote
Shiflan wrote:
Aphasial wrote:
Was what was going on during the dance scene in the Utena movie?


It looks to me like a different group of animators did that scene, rather than it being the difference between CG and traditional animation. (Though I may well be wrong, it's been many years since I watched that movie).


While I remember Ikuhara talking on the commentary track about the dancing scene being animated in digipaint instead of the method of traditional cels (which I find remarkably well-done because, when it stricly concerns the character's outlines and colors, I can't tell the difference ), I agree with you here that it probably relates to the handling of particular cuts by another key animator or different group of animators.

To my understanding, digital shots were being used in the late 90's and early 2000's especially in darker scenes, like some which take place during the night. For example, I remember some night scenes in Figure 17 being remarkably "sterile" and "clean" with the characters and mecha having garish colors. The rest of the cuts were done in traditional cel animation style with more muted colors.
I suppose that digipaint was being used in those darker scenes to prevent the apparition of any white scratches on dark backgrounds, which would have appeared if traditional cels had been used. Even the most delicate handling of cels couldn't prevent some scratches on them. The layering and movement of cels onto a dark background made those scratches sometimes quite apparent.
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AJ (LordNikon)



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:01 pm Reply with quote
And here am I thinking about the jarring differences of anime made in the 70's compared to today Smile
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MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:53 am Reply with quote
TonyTonyChopper wrote:
Still i'm just not to found of digipaint as compared to cell i don't care for most of those flashy looking effects ...some of them look dumb to me i think Osamu Dezaki like stuff looks 20 times beter them most of the digital stuff.
And a lot of these sesonal anime have this child-ish art style to them while older stuff seems to have much more charachter to me.
It's just flat layers of paint, which are put onto cels, which unlike paper don't mix together. And then it's shot from the over side, so you see it through the clear side, so you see no brush strokes. Digital paint and cel paint are both just flat colours. The only exceptions are backgrounds.
The art style to, whatever show your talking about when you say seasonal show, is not effected by wherever it's digital paint or cel paint. And while we are on the subject stop dividing Anime up into new and old, it is far more varied then that,there are tons of different styles and different time periods, and judging it by such simple labels is disrespectful.
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Shiflan



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 85
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:58 am Reply with quote
MarshalBanana wrote:
@Shiflan I don't think they were talking about 3D CG, .


Good point. Though it was not intentional, the references I just made were indeed to 3D. I was looking for visually jarring computer effects of any sort, not the 2D stuff only.
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Shiflan



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:31 am Reply with quote
MarshalBanana wrote:
Shiflan wrote:
Another great example is the city/buildings in the opening of Bubblegum Crash.
Really? this opening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQgq7465rz0


Yes, that is the opening I was referring to. However, the youtube video you linked appears to have cut off the scene I was talking about. It happens just before when the youtube video starts. Though, it is 3D so perhaps it may be a bit off topic from the original point of this discussion?
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MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:35 am Reply with quote
Shiflan wrote:
MarshalBanana wrote:
Shiflan wrote:
Another great example is the city/buildings in the opening of Bubblegum Crash.
Really? this opening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQgq7465rz0


Yes, that is the opening I was referring to. However, the youtube video you linked appears to have cut off the scene I was talking about. It happens just before when the youtube video starts. Though, it is 3D so perhaps it may be a bit off topic from the original point of this discussion?
Oh yeah, I went and looked it up, it reminds me of the CG used in the opening to the 90s version of Spider Man.
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