Forum - View topicAnswerman - Is Working To Death Really A Thing In Japan?
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Heishi
 Posts: 1317 |
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Yeah, fudge worker's rights! All those people who wanted safe working conditions during and after the Industrial Revolution are a bunch of entitled whiny pussies who need to man up and just accept those poor, unsafe, conditions and anyone who complains about it even once should immediately be fired! |
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Sakagami Tomoyo
 Posts: 940 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia |
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Except that capitalism being what it is, if companies want to remain competitive (or in business at all), they tend to have to be around as ruthless as the competition. And consumers that actually care enough about employee's rights and conditions to spend more are way less common than those who prioritise price, whether out of being tightfisted or their own finances being skint enough that it's necessary. End result? "Just don't buy from shitty companies" is not a realistic option, and the completely unregulated free market that so many Americans are in love with the idea of would make things worse, not better. |
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CandisWhite
Posts: 282 |
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In this particular case, the problem is that is the stressed out "good" worker being a symbol of productivity is seen on a national and a cultural level: One company doing the right thing will not solve the problem and the article outright stated that companies who have tried have had employees sneak in work. I ,also, wonder how open Japan is to such things as reviewing the policies and employee standards of companies, whether colloquially or professionally; How can you compare and rank what you don't know about? This is one of those problems that is going to take national regulation and enforcement, even if they need to take it from the clinical perspective of healthy workers make productive workers, baby-makers, and citizens. And as far as capitalism vs. socialism: Labour laws haven't stopped people from becoming wealthy; Having a baseline does not mean that a company cannot move forward as much as they want; A salon that keeps itself above board will make more money than a back-alley, sack of garbage, nail joint ever will because they provide a decent service and it is worth being paid for. There's a difference between regulating business so that it can flow in a better manner and having government control to the point of personal, market, and societal freedom being lost. |
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Paiprince
 Posts: 593 |
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I knew my opinion about this is going to be marked by a bunch of people (I even got the W word from someone.
 ). Let me tell you why I stick to my seemingly unpopular stance on this issue.
First, the overall productive industries come from countries that aren't exactly known for enforcing "labor rights." China, Bangladesh what have you. They work their employees to the bone in almost downright oppressive environments so YOU don't have to. Yeah, news of their practices gets word overseas and companies attempt to do something about it like slapping fines on one factory at least and cutting ties at most...only to go jump to another factory that looks "labor friendly" on paper. All for the sake of image. Second, let's not kid ourselves that this current generation of young adults are a pack of spoiled, entitled brats who so much as to cry bloody murder if they were told to pick up after themselves. They get coddled up all the way to the workforce. With the way they demand for rights, rights, rights, you think they're some marginalized minority. Especially in the service industry, your JOB is to treat your customers like royalty, not the other way around. Third, "treating them like human beings" is grounds for getting played at. I'm sorry, but you need to keep your guard up when it comes to every single hand you hire. Give them a foot, they'll take a hundred miles. You are giving them wages. That alone should be enough for them to do the job that is tasked. If you want a damn counselor or something, don't do it on the clock. This goes along with my earlier point. @Blanchimont The ethic style of Southeast Asian nations are different from East Asians. Also, my posts about immigration is irrelevant considering the still shaky job market in which even "privileged" natives are hanging onto their occupations for dear life...for the most part. You still get those who think they can coast through once they get hired and then they get a rude awakening. |
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BadNewsBlues
Posts: 5917 |
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I know I'm not spoiled or entitled....coming from a poor background makes you that way.
Unless of course your customers are awful terrible people. You do know that your comment of people feeling like they're special snowflakes boomerangs back on itself when discussing the mindset of consumers right?
So basically if you hire someone to do a job they shouldn't get something like say health insurance or worker's compensation which without they in effect would have to pay for any medical care out of their own pockets should they get injured on or off the job. Or if you're expecting them to work overtime they shouldn't expect to get paid for staying late and helping out the company. Gee I hate to see you how you'd run a business. Last edited by BadNewsBlues on Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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omiya
 Posts: 1825 Location: Adelaide, South Australia |
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The quote "pathetic for someone to die just from working more than a hundred hours a month." was a misunderstanding of the fact that the hundred hours per month overtime was in addition to normal full time hours in Japan (40 hours per week or roughly 160 hours per month?).
One of the recent karoshi cases was of a man from a South East Asian country working in a foundry or similar factory in Japan. (Here in Australia I was concerned about someone working a 60 hour week in a similar industry being able to drive home safely after work). By contrast a German company in Australia that I knew of had no overtime for most workers and a perfectionist, high productivity work ethic. |
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AnimeLordLuis
 Posts: 1626 Location: The Borderlands of Pandora |
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Well as sad as it is I guess that the Japanese stereotype of "Work Yourself To Death" is true and I hope that things can change for the better.
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zrnzle500
 Posts: 3767 |
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While China does lead in manufacturing output, the US is still second, Germany and Japan are right below (though of course Japan has a problem with overwork, on other aspects of workplace conditions, they do enforce labor rights) and many countries that don't enforce labor rights are further below, like say Bangladesh, whose government has been forced by its people to actually enforce these labor rights from tragedies in recent years including workers being killed by a building collapsing and I believe another incident where workers couldn't get out of a burning building due to a lack of fire exits. So the idea that most of the manufacturing just comes from poor countries (Well China's more middle wage by now. Hence the move to poorer countries than them that has started) is just wrong. But then where are the manufacturing jobs? Being done by robots is the answer, but you probably knew that. So we can have our inhuman pace of output and our not dying for preventable reasons at work either from long hours or dangerous working conditions too. So no people have to do this work. Really hoping the robots don't mind.
This current generation, eh? You can find contemporaneous articles decrying Baby Boomers and Generation X for being lazy and self-centered at just about the same time in their lives. And I imagine you could go back much further and still find older generations complaining about how young people these days are so lazy and entitled. So let's not kid ourselves that this generations is uniquely lazy or entitled, but rather teenagers and young adults are so and will grow out of it. And this only really pertains to middle class and up teenagers, as BadNewsBlues said poor people can't really afford to be spoiled and entitled. And the idea that we are being coddled into the workforce to many of us seems a bit ripe, as pertains to the US, given the record levels of student debt this generation is taking on. Until recently I had to work two jobs just to pay my student loans. I've also had a job for most of the last 10 years of my life (out of 25 so about 30-40% of my life) and I am far from the only person my age who has had a job since they were a teenager. Oh and you need not lecture us on the service industry. Many of us have worked or work in the service industry. And let's just say that young adults aren't the only ones who can be spoiled and entitled.
Yes yes workers are so selfish and spoiled for wanting things like not dying from preventable causes in the work place. I dare say that workers deserve a good faith effort from their employers prevent their employees from dying from preventable causes like say overwork. That isn't unreasonable to ask for and frankly they shouldn't need to ask for it and their employers shouldn't be allowed to deny them that. |
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Galap
Moderator
 Posts: 2354 |
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I think where this line of thinking goes wrong is the assumption that an industry can't be productive without oppressive environments. I don't think this is true. I have a lot to say about the reasons why I think this, but it would be extremely long so I'll mostly point people to the (also rather long) but IMO fascinating article Meditations on Moloch which mirrors most of my reasoning.
As someone who works in a 'harsh' industry (and one that's harsh in multiple ways), I can say from experience that the issues workers have and face in these situations are very serious. This isn't about just wanting to pad your wallet a little more. This is about being able to sleep enough that you don't feel like utter garbage for literally your entire waking life. This is about being able to obtain sufficiently nutritious foods and eat at optimal intervals This is about being able to see your family from time to time. This is about being able to go home if you're projectile vomiting into the trash can. This is about being allowed/able to pursue romantic relationships. This is about not being relentlessly and needlessly exposed to conditions that could result in you being seriously injured or killed. I take issue with anyone who claims that these aren't 'real' problems. |
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5823 Location: Virginia, United States |
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Living wages have to be factored into the cost of business, which means higher prices for the consumers. So instead of paying, 6-9 dollars for a fast food meal, you could be paying 10-15 dollars. We already know the business is not going to take the loss, if will be passed on to the consumer. Free education (you probably mean free college education), which means higher taxes on the middle class. No one honestly expects the rich are going to be made to pay for it. Curious though, when you say free education, do you mean all courses and field of studies. Will Yale and MIT be free? I have already seen what less work hours have done to Europe. It takes forever to get anything done. Government workers are the worst. Nothing is free. Somebody is going to pay for it. Usually it will be the consumer and the middle class. |
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MrTerrorist
Posts: 1348 |
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Uhh, reading this reminds me of what my former company and friend's company is facing.
Due to budget cuts, the companies were forced to lay off many employees to save money and the ones that weren't have to work twice as much to make for their lack of numbers. Despite this, the employees that were laid off were compensated and the companies pay for overtime work. Hopefully in the future, this type of toxic work culture of working to death is fixed so there would less workers dying or committing suicide. After all, we're humans, not Objectivist robots. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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|]arkMyth
Posts: 2 |
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It's counter-productive. It's not making the country better, it's setting it up for long-term crash. Work is a marathon, not a sprint. I don't understand the over-work to death philosophy because it really does not work, and I've worked in companies that push this. I've worked 80+ hour weeks for months, and it was far from my most productive work period. My best explanation of it is clueless managers who think forcing more time will lead to more productivity but it doesn't. Burn out happens, and when those tired employees get to work, guess what, their skills, drive and innovation are going to suffer, a company like that can succeed in the short-run but will inevitable fail in the long-run.
There are times when some over-time can definitely help, but too much of it is never a good thing. It's usually a problem with management, if things are planned correctly and resources are well-utilized there's no need for overtime. If you take a look at some of the tech companies, you'll see a lot of perks revolving around time off and work on personal projects initiatives. The problem is, it's really hard to change a strict mindset that thinks more time working = better. |
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Well this is all academic because when the AI take over all this daily grind and toil we'll all have more leisure time to do what we want without anymore worries, or stress.
Won't we? 
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zrnzle500
Posts: 3767 |
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Realistically we humans will find other work to do, probably in the service industry or maybe elder care. Not that some wouldn't like automated luxury communism. Some form of basic income would be necessary in a post work economy to replace wages so that the vast majority of the population isn't impoverished and the economy doesn't collapse from a lack of people to buy stuff. |
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