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Answerman - Are There Any Vegetarians In Japan?


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Mr. Oshawott



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:08 am Reply with quote
Although I'm no vegetarian, I did enjoy a few rare veggie foods once, like veggie lasagna. They were super tasty. Anime smile
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:22 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
Unless you're hyperallergic, a person can overcome allergies, at least for a good deal of their lives, by taking in small amounts of that food and eating more and more of it until the adverse reactions become unnoticeable or at least bearable. (Not all humans can do this, but my sister overcame her allergies to eggs and peanuts in this way. As our culture's cuisine uses eggs and peanuts in a LOT of dishes, this was necessary for her to function.) Humans are born unable to take in cow milk, for instance, but can do so because they drink enough of it that human digestive systems create ways of dealing with the lactose in there. The people who are lactose intolerant were never able to complete this process. Their digestive systems wouldn't allow them to.

Hence, I would guess in Japan, either people with fish allergies are rare due to them dying out, or they are gradually eased into the allergy. Then again, Japanese culture also shuns people who, for whatever reason, are unable to fit in with the rest of society.


That doesn't really answer the question. Razz The situation I have in mind is what you're distinguishing as 'hyperallergic;' in my case, for example, a small bite of fish induces severe anaphylactic shock (as I've unfortunately tested - throat takes on a bright red color and swells up to 3-4 times its normal size so that breathing becomes increasingly hampered), which would be fatal if the individual isn't rushed to a hospital. I'm curious how that would be handled by/for a native Japanese person.

It's worth noting that some allergies are also non-responsive to exposure therapy. For my non-food allergies I underwent bi-weekly serum injections under an allergist's care for a year or two with zero change in my symptoms, for example, until the allergist decided there wasn't much point in continuing. While it's nice when exposure therapies work, in their current state they're not an allergy panacea; they also seem to be specifically discouraged by the medical community for treating food allergies:

wiki wrote:
Allergen immunotherapy, also known as desensitization or hypo-sensitization, is a medical treatment for some types of allergies. It is useful for environmental allergies, allergies to insect bites, and asthma. Its benefit for food allergies is unclear and thus not recommended. Immunotherapy involves exposing people to larger and larger amounts of allergen in an attempt to change the immune system's response.


I also don't think that's an accurate description of lactose intolerance. Almost all humans are born producing lactase, the primary enzyme needed to break down lactose, the offending sugar in milk (including cow's milk). Lactose intolerance primarily occurs when a human for some reason or other stops producing lactase (though there are unusual cases of premature babies born not yet able to produce lactase; maybe this is what you had in mind?). Comparing lactose intolerance to a food allergy is a bit odd, too; the former is an issue with digesting a particular sugar and remains largely localized to the digestive tract (although I suppose if you insisted on eating truly tremendous quantities of it the problem could become severe), while the latter involves a potentially widespread and life-threatening immune system response to the presence of milk. The etiology and severity of the two pathologies are quite distinct.
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Alan45
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Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:28 am Reply with quote
@NeverConvex

It is likely that someone with a hyperallergic response to fish would not survive childhood in Japan. Fish based food is so pervasive that the condition would not be identified in time.
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:42 am Reply with quote
A dark prognosis! What if they developed the allergy in adolescence? (This, again, was the case with me, not that that's particularly important; I only mention it to observe that it can happen, and probably isn't terribly uncommon. I doubt I'm a Black Swan!)

edit: The Redditor in this thread seems to have had considerable success explaining fish allergies in Japan and avoiding fish consumption:

Quote:
I have this same allergy and go to Japan often.

It's frequently obvious whether the food is fish/seafood free. That said, I downloaded an app, Lingolook Japan, that displays on screen in Japnese and says out loud in Japanese 'I am allergic to seafood.' It also says, 'I'll have whatever you recommend.' I've had some great meals (and fascinated waiters/chefs) by playing those two statements next to each other and then eating what they bring. They always understand it fully.

That said, Japanese food is amazing and delicious, even when avoiding all seafood. Okonomyaki and steaks are two of my favorites.


(they discuss later in the Reddit thread that Okonomyaki is typically made with fish, most often tuna according to their discussion; apparently this Redditor has an unusual allergy in which s/he's only nonallergic to tuna)
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Banken



Joined: 29 May 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:59 am Reply with quote
Psycho 101 wrote:

You should read dormcat's post from page 2 where he responded to pretty much the same comment. He is Asian btw, and lives in Asia too!, just so that's clear in case it wasn't before heh. Personally I say eat what ya want or don't want. Provided it's legal, so no eating people. Yet.


?

Taiwan is not Japan.

Vegetarianism and veganism simply are simply not a factor when it comes to 99% of the dining options in Japan. Pound for pound, vegetables actually sometimes cost more than meat and fish.

Although there must be picky Japanese people since people are always asking if I can eat something or other. The answer is always yes.

Also, I was talking about all dietary restrictions, not just vegetarianism and the like.

You can find Halal restaurants if big cities, though... and I'm sure there are vegetarian or maybe even vegan (I don't even know what the Japanese word for vegan is). You're boned if you're a Celiac patient, though. Udon and ramen are pretty much pure gluten.
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Agent355



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:12 am Reply with quote
Celiacs can always eat rice. Pretty sure that's available in Japan. Wink Also, isn't there a version of soba made exclusively with buckwheat? That wouldn't have gluten, either.
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jedijenchan



Joined: 29 Jun 2015
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Location: Chicago, IL, USA
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:35 am Reply with quote
Quote:


Well, it's an issue with people that have and fish/shellfish allergies. Fish and shellfish ingredients are in everything! They just don't seem to understand food allergies - of any kind.

A friend of mine had a terrible experience with this, and did carry chef cards and materials in Japanese about their allergy. He wound up having to navigate the health care system there, and it wasn't easy.

Since seafood/shellfish/fish is a staple, and a part of a LOT of time-honored recipes, they just don't want to eliminate it.
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svines85



Joined: 30 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:40 am Reply with quote
Alan45 wrote:
@NeverConvex

It is likely that someone with a hyperallergic response to fish would not survive childhood in Japan. Fish based food is so pervasive that the condition would not be identified in time.


Or that extreme condition simply would never even have developed as they were being exposed to those things early and often and building up a natural tolerance Smile
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MrFox123



Joined: 12 Oct 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:36 pm Reply with quote
Blanchimont wrote:


If we really want to up the efficiency of protein production, utilizing only a fraction of land area, and having minimal methane emissions and overall environmental impact, then we should switch from traditional meat production to insect farming. Admittedly, that might probably take a few generations to pick up steam.


you'd have an easier time accepting lab grown meat going more mainstream in the next 5 year. Attention from Mcdonlds is sure to speed that up Razz
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NeverConvex
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:34 pm Reply with quote
svines85 wrote:
Or that extreme condition simply would never even have developed as they were being exposed to those things early and often and building up a natural tolerance Smile


I don't think food allergies are as simple as this; I was exposed to quite a lot of fish and shellfish as a child (I absolutely adored crab) but nevertheless developed a severe allergy to both in adolescence. That's pure anecdote, of course, but see also the above quote from the exposure therapy wikipedia; it's not viewed with general approval by the medical community for treating food allergies, and evidence of its efficacy is mixed & preliminary, especially when it comes to severe allergies. It seems reasonable to be similarly skeptical of exposure as a foolproof barrier to allergy development.
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Fenrin



Joined: 19 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:05 pm Reply with quote
I wonder if exposure therapy would work on my sister, she suddenly gained sensitivities to gluten and milk around age 24 and 3 years later the list has continued to grow; nuts and chocolate give her acne and red meat, coconut water, soy milk, plain white rice, nightshade veggies not cooked, etc., all cause digestive irregularities and chest pain. She thinks it's due to a weakened microbiome so she drinks kombucha and takes probiotics but the benefits are temperary.

Needless to say she would have a heck of a time dining out in any other country.
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Alan45
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:35 pm Reply with quote
@NeverConvex

My point was that anaphylactic shock, as you well know, is very dangerous regardless of cause. If it is not recognized and appropriate treatment given very quickly it can kill. I don't know if this is a recent thing or if it was just not recognized in the past. I don't remember hearing of anyone having such a problem when I was young. I was an adult before I met someone who needed to be rushed to the hospital, in his case for bee sting.

As pervasive as fish is in the Japanese diet it is likely that any hereditary cause of a seafood allergy would have died out before there was any way to treat it. The same with the cause being specific to the individual. I doubt that the incidence is as high in Japan as in the US where it is not terribly prevalent.

My sister-in-law developed a shell fish allergy as an adult. She was sent for several weeks to a different city by her employer on an expense account. Since she had to eat out every evening she indulged her love of shrimp and lobster and ended in the hospital for an allergy she didn't know she had. She remained able to eat fish and for some reason scallops. After more than a decade of no shell fish, recent testing showed minimal allergic reaction to it. On the advice of her physician she has again begun to eat shell fish, though she was told not to over do it.
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Kikaioh



Joined: 01 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:15 pm Reply with quote
Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:
A vegan diet being good enough in adult life is one thing, but it's rather less certain that there's no harm to a vegan diet on children in the earliest stages of development. Also people trying to make their carnivorous pets eat vegan. It is worth noting that people who take it that far would be at the fringe, and certainly shouldn't be taken to represent vegans and vegetarians as a whole.


To anyone not in the know, cats in particular are obligate carnivores, meaning their biology is specifically designed to process nutrients from the meat of the prey they consume --- they're obligated to eat meat. I've heard stories of cats on the verge of death because their owners tried to put them on a vegetarian diet, so it's always good to know about your pet's biological needs before giving them incompatible/potentially life-threatening diets.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:20 pm Reply with quote
Agent355 wrote:
That surprises me. If there is one thing Paris has, it's a variety of food! I don't know when your friend went, but according to this article, as of April 2016 there were approximately 290 vegetarian restaurants in Paris. Paris has a big kosher-keeping community, too, and many have pareve (neutral) foods--the dairy restaurants would have no meat or fowl (bird meat) at all, but would have dairy, eggs & sometimes fish in their dishes. The fish would be very easy to avoid, and cheese/milk would probably be, too (and the cheese would probably be much less likely to use animal based rennet than at the average restaurant, if that's a concern). I've heard of bakeries and chocolate shops that don't use dairy, as well.
If there are no other options, there's always that Soylent stuff--supposedly, it's vegan, kosher, and contains all the nutrition an adult needs so that s/he doesn't have to actually eat anything else. Like a baby formula for adults!


It was around summer 2008, I believe. That Kitchen Nightmares episode was also from around that time. Looking at your article, the proliferation of vegetarian restaurants seems to have been a recent surge, which I definitely appreciate.

For the record, her experiences amounted to the waiter of one restaurant not understanding that shrimp is a type of meat, and the chef of another one arguing that there's no meat in that beef stock because the meat is not visible. It seemed to be a case of the restaurant staff not really understanding vegetarianism rather than any societal pressure or stubbornness.

NeverConvex wrote:
That doesn't really answer the question. Razz The situation I have in mind is what you're distinguishing as 'hyperallergic;' in my case, for example, a small bite of fish induces severe anaphylactic shock (as I've unfortunately tested - throat takes on a bright red color and swells up to 3-4 times its normal size so that breathing becomes increasingly hampered), which would be fatal if the individual isn't rushed to a hospital. I'm curious how that would be handled by/for a native Japanese person.

It's worth noting that some allergies are also non-responsive to exposure therapy. For my non-food allergies I underwent bi-weekly serum injections under an allergist's care for a year or two with zero change in my symptoms, for example, until the allergist decided there wasn't much point in continuing. While it's nice when exposure therapies work, in their current state they're not an allergy panacea; they also seem to be specifically discouraged by the medical community for treating food allergies:

wiki wrote:
Allergen immunotherapy, also known as desensitization or hypo-sensitization, is a medical treatment for some types of allergies. It is useful for environmental allergies, allergies to insect bites, and asthma. Its benefit for food allergies is unclear and thus not recommended. Immunotherapy involves exposing people to larger and larger amounts of allergen in an attempt to change the immune system's response.


I also don't think that's an accurate description of lactose intolerance. Almost all humans are born producing lactase, the primary enzyme needed to break down lactose, the offending sugar in milk (including cow's milk). Lactose intolerance primarily occurs when a human for some reason or other stops producing lactase (though there are unusual cases of premature babies born not yet able to produce lactase; maybe this is what you had in mind?). Comparing lactose intolerance to a food allergy is a bit odd, too; the former is an issue with digesting a particular sugar and remains largely localized to the digestive tract (although I suppose if you insisted on eating truly tremendous quantities of it the problem could become severe), while the latter involves a potentially widespread and life-threatening immune system response to the presence of milk. The etiology and severity of the two pathologies are quite distinct.


Yikes, that sounds like a pretty severe allergy. Is it the kind that's so bad that you have to keep away from certain places? In any case, it definitely doesn't sound like the type that's easy to treat.

My mother swears up and down to desensitization of allergies, at least among cases not severe enough to be life-threatening in even small quantities. Interesting to see that among medical circles, it's not really recommended. But I guess that holds true for a lot of these home remedies like this too.

I was comparing lactose tolerance to allergies because I was thinking they follow the same desensitization principle. I am a case myself: Just as my sister was desensitized to eggs and peanuts, so was I to lactose, and my mom did the same gradual tolerance program. It was done at such an early age I was actually not aware of it until way later in my life. Maybe I was one of those cases where I was born not producing lactase. My entire family is like this, every member of it going back at least two generations: They all had to ease into consuming lactose, and my mom decided to do it as soon as possible.
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mrsatan



Joined: 06 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:45 pm Reply with quote
I'm late to this conversation, but I must confirm how awful it is to be vegetarian in Japan.

I tried ordering a simple salad. They put bacon on it, which is apparently customary.

I stayed at a friend's house and informed them that I was vegetarian. They said they understood, but made the dish with fish anyways and told me to take it out.
Katsuo-dashi (bonito flakes) are in almost everything. It is correct that the Japanese just don't understand the concept.

I spent most of my one year as an exchange student in Kyushu eating white rice and sometimes salad at the school cafe. If I went to a place that had sushi, I could eat kappa-maki and inari-zushi.

Most of the restaurants were very far away from my dorm. I started going a little nutty from eating white rice every day, and would irritate friends when they drove by an American restaurant by begging them to stop there.

When I visited Tokyo I was really impressed by the culinary variety offered there. The hotel I stayed at even boasted about their vegetarian options. But Tokyo is not the norm.
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