Forum - View topicIs Miyazaki a good story teller?
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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I’ve been rewatching some of Miyazaki’s films lately. I’ve never been a huge fan but I’ve never really thought much about his films either. What I’ve found this time around is that many of them just aren’t very dramatic, or more specifically they’re not reaching the dramatic potential they could have given their story premises. This has caused me to wonder whether Miyazaki is a bad storyteller, or at least chooses to be in his films. People criticize Tales from Earthsea a lot for being too passive with its narrative, but Miyazaki senior’s films have the same problem, just maybe to a lesser degree.
The strange thing is if you look at most reviews of Miyazaki’s work you would get the impression that he’s the Japanese Charles Dickens, and the quality of his stories is unsurpassed. Can this really be justified? That he’s a great visual artist is undeniable, but where’s the evidence that his films contain great storytelling? |
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Touma
 Posts: 2651 Location: Colorado, USA |
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I think that the evidence is in the large number of people who enjoy the stories. I do not know how you judge the story telling but I judge it by what the story does for me. How much it grabs and holds my interest, how much it makes me laugh or cry, how it excites my sense of wonder. Miyazaki's stories are good at all of those. I do not like everything he has done because some stories are just not right for me, but Spirited Away, My Neighbor Totoro, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind and others have been among my favorites since I first saw them. That makes Miyazaki a good story teller to me. His movies are visually very impressive, but I like them mostly for the stories. Last edited by Touma on Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23762 |
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It's a fair question. I'm a huge Miyazaki fan but I wouldn't say that story-telling is necessarily a strength of his. Some of his movies show story-telling chops like Castle in the Sky, Nausicaa and Princess Mononoke, I would argue. In the end, it doesn't really matter to me. My Neighbor Totoro doesn't really have much of a story, but I loved very second. Miyazaki's films tend to resonate with me on an emotional level as opposed to leaving me on the edge of my seat wondering what's going to happen next. And, as you already noted, there is the visual magic. Miyazaki offers a flavour of film-making you just can't get anywhere else, but I appreciate it's not to everyone's taste. And believe me, I don't mean that in any kind of condescending, "oh you poor fool, you simply don't have the exquisite sensibility required to savour a work of art at this level." I mean it in the "Miyazaki does a 'thing' and not everybody is going to enjoy that 'thing' and that's totally cool."
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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For me the criteria for a good story is whether it's dramatic or not. On one level that's a subjective reaction. However, I believe there are certain ways of structuring a narrative that will produce more dramatic impact then if they're avoided. There are a lot of aspects of the narratives in Miyazaki's films that prevent it from reaching the dramatic impact that they could have. |
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Jose Cruz
 Posts: 1773 Location: South America |
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Was Newton a good scientist?
Was Beethoven a good music composer? Was Nitzche a good philosoper? Was Tolstoi a good writer? Miyazaki is without a doubt one of the greatest storytellers of all time. His Nausicaa manga still remains to most powerful experience I ever had with a fictional narrative. He is the type of person that will be remembered in a 1000 years. |
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NearEasternerJ1
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He's not a good writer. He's a director, not a writer. He's like George Lucas or Tomino. He has clunky writing, but great direction. |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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I can't speak to the others, but Nietzsche's work is considered trash by many philosophers, especially those coming from more Anglo-American philosophical schools.
I'm talking about his films though.
I've thought about this comparison as well given they both have created incredibly visually imaginative and original worlds. However, George Lucas has shown an ability to create dramatic narratives in the SW films. He may suck as writing dialogue, but he knows how to structure a story in a dramatically impactful way. I don't see this in Miyazaki's films. |
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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Short Answer: No duh.
Long Answer: Well, they're certainly beloved. The funny thing I noticed is that domestic-wise, Miyazaki-directed films were almost ALWAYS number one at the box office that year. This is especially noticable because the default number one is usually a Hollywood blockbuster. Ignoring that, they are considered mainstream even by people who don't watch anime. What troubles me is that your definition of a good story is that it must be "dramatic". By that logic, comedies can never be true art because they aren't "dramatic" enough. Drama is not inherently good, and Sturgeon's Law states that they are always going to be bad dramas. When I look at your statement, I see the phrase "I don't like stories that do not confirm to my expectations of what a story should be". Another thing about Miyazaki is that many of his films are focused more on atmosphere and mood than on being plot-driven. This is not necessarily a bad thing, especially because Miyazaki is a master of creating a good atmosphere. In my opinion, My Neighbor Totoro perfectly captures the wonders and experiences of childhood. To me, it's certainly one of the great family films of all time. It seems to me that your tastes tend to lean towards Western styles of story telling than Miyazaki's very eastern style. That's okay. It just means that Miyazaki films aren't your bread and butter, so to speak. (Personally, I think Porco Rosso needs far more attention that it has.) And by the way, yes, Miyazaki is a writer. A majority of the films he directs also have him as the head of script. |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15457 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I am one of those few anime fans that are not such a big fan of Miyazaki. I think that my opinions come based partially on what I have heard that he dislikes a good deal of adult marketed anime, which I think has him seeing it as an abomination. I think that it is maybe indicative that although he is excellent in his movies for setting tones and stories that connect with things like childhood wonder, I actually think he is limited. I don't think that he believes in or appreciates some of the big things other writers can do outside of aiming at children (or child at heart).
I think it creates a yes for what he does in being a good storyteller, but that it is maybe too narrow so that you probably could think that he is not perfect. |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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I never said anything about "true art". I'm not a huge fan of comedy films, but from my experience most successful comedy films do tend to have dramatic storylines. The point's irrelevant though because Miyazaki's films aren't comedy films. I wouldn't be judging them by this standard to the same degree if they were.
Which is what I'm claiming Miyazaki's films are. I'd never say that they're completely devoid of drama, they're just very lazy in that department.
It's not my view, it's a pretty normative standard among storytellers of different kinds.
I wouldn't include Totoro within my criticism because I think it's just aiming for what you describe. It wears its heart on its sleeve in terms of its ambition and scope. I don't think the same can be said of films like Nausicaa or Princess Mononoke. They're both hugely ambitious narratively, and present serious dramatic stakes. It's the structuring of the narrative and the effect of that on the drama that's the problem.
If it's just an issue of cultural difference then why does Tales of Earthsea get criticized as "boring" by Miyazaki fans so much. That has very similar narrative problems to what I'm talking about. |
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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@arkthelad
First, I wasn't saying that Miyazaki films were comedy. I was just using comedy as an example of your claim that a story must be "dramatic". Second, for all your claims about his movies being bad, I haven't seen you bring up any specific problems- just the generic blanket statement that Miyazaki movies are badly written. And third, Tales of Earthsea was directed by Miyazaki's SON, so it doesn't count. So far, all your talk about how bad a storyteller Miyazaki is comes off as "it doesn't conform to this exact specific standard I have" rather than actual legitimate criticism. Besides, what does it mean to be "dramatic"? Does it mean a hard focus on plot? Does it mean a darker tone? You can't really demand something out of these movies when you haven't explained what it is you want. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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I do think that people in this group underestimate their size, particularly in these quarters. I certainly agree with what you have said. What I would add is that there are many ignoble elements of humanity to which Miyazaki has always been reticent for his protagonists to reflect. It is all good and well for a viewer to relish in the triumph over adversity and the development of someone's character, though this is not to say that a protagonist shouldn't be shown to be maladjusted, or that genuine disappointment or peril should never come their way. I should add that this is not a demand for more 'adult' content. I recently watched (and greatly enjoyed) Yonebayashi's When Marnie Was There, and I was quite taken by the fact that its main character shows a notable moral deficiency at one point, something one would not expect of, say, Chihiro or Kiki. There was also a dark twist in its story, which by itself was out of kilter with Miyazaki's oeuvre, but nevertheless did not inhibit the broadly optimistic and joyous tone for which he always strove. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23762 |
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I'd say that The Wind Rises completely refutes this belief. With the possible exception of Ponyo, all of Miyazaki's films have had a pretty sophisticated sensibility about them. Kiki's Delivery Service is about more than a girl who wants to deliver stuff on her broom. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the average North American kid, growing up in this Pixar/Disney world, probably wouldn't be all that enamored by Miyazaki's films. |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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Didn't think you were.
Never said they were bad, just the storytelling. In my first post I said he's a great visual artist.
I know Earthsea was made by his son. My point was that I see a lot of Miyazaki fans criticize the story for being "boring" when it has a lot of the same recurring problems that Miyazaki senior's films have. For example, taking forever to establish the central conflicts. Having large sections of the film where the characters are just "doing stuff" that doesn't relate to the central conflicts. Having a bland protagonist.
Drama the way I've learned it means conflict, so a dramatic narrative is one that centres around conflict. Obviously Miyazaki's films do have conflict in them, but what I'm saying is that it's not constructed in the most effective way. They don't live up to their dramatic potential.
I absolutely agree. Nausicaa's possibly the biggest Mary Sue in film history, and Prince Ashitaka isn't too far behind. |
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jal90
Posts: 11 |
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Come on... if we had to judge creators and authors according to their opinions on other authors, I doubt Ingmar "other directors are boring" Bergman would have such a name in the film culture. I am a big fan of Miyazaki, so obviously I may lack some... distanced view? that would be welcome in this discussion, but comparing him with other anime directors and filmmakers, I'd say he's actually not that homogeneous in his style and themes. He defines a target for most of his films, but has a wide range of themes, and has actually made films for other target audiences. There is nothing about Porco Rosso that appeals to kids, same with The wind rises. He certainly focuses a lot on children, though. In the end this doesn't matter much because his films end up having a wider appeal than intended. Just look at how Spirited away went, and it wasn't even intended at kids, it was intended at 10-year-old girls who could relate to Chihiro xD But yeah, on topic. As much of a fanboy I am, I don't particularly have Miyazaki's storytelling in a very high regard. His stories are many times a bunch of great ideas that seem to be inserted a bit randomly, without much care for tying everything together and wrapping up his narrative well. Specially compared with Takahata, who in contrast with Miyazaki does care a lot about keeping the narration consistent, his movies many times feel kind of disjointed. Not in the level of Tales from Earthsea, which (at least how I felt) didn't even have a point, though. Hayao's films are built with clear purposes and intend to reach a point, and that, even if the narrative is as disjointed as in Howl's moving castle (his worst film in my opinion and also his worst narrated), it's clear where he comes from and what he wants to transmit. However, beyond the traditional aspects of cohesion Miyazaki does have talent as a storyteller. I think he replaces successfully this lack of cohesion with proper emphasis, and his stories manage to keep their emotional and moral appeal intact even if they have problems of consistency. There're other virtues I believe should be considered here. He can convey complex ideas quite easily, he is great at character exposition and manages to make their interactions sound natural and organic, and above all, he is probably the best anime has to offer in terms of visual narrative. If you watch Spirited away and pay close attention to the gestures and movements the characters make, you realize that they are telling a whole story by themselves. And not many can do that. |
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