Forum - View topicThe List - 7 Women Who Changed Manga History
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Wooga
 Posts: 916 Location: Tucson |
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I really highly doubt this?? There was gekiga in the 50's. Do you just type things and think that makes them true? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo's_Song "According to the official Tezuka web site, sex education for children was a taboo in Japan in the late 1960s, but this changed suddenly in the early 1970s. Apollo's Song was created during a period where manga was increasingly portraying sexual stories and imagery, and was Tezuka's exploration of love and sex in manga form. " Original run April 26, 1970 – November 22, 1970 Rose of Versailles Original run 1972 – 1973 I am not saying Apollo's Song is the first either, I'm sure there are others but that is off the top of my head. |
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wonderwomanhero
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Its upsetting. I'm starting to fear it was pulled by Riyoko... People keep asking UDON but no response. I'm more worried about it being expensive since UDON isn't exactly the most affordable brand.... |
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 2944 Location: Email for assistance only |
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Do you approach all people with this type of hostility? It's one thing to think I'm mistaken, it's another to accuse of me of fabricating things for shits and giggles. Rose of Versailles is famous in Japan for having the first "bed scene" in manga and its impact on female readers. It was not presented as "educational material". Sources: https://www.amazon.com/Male-Homosexuality-Modern-Japan-Realities/dp/0700714251 (page 74) http://finnclark.thiswaydown.org/Review/TheRoseofVersailles.html Mechademia Vol 2: Networks of Desire, page 14- Deborah Shamoon https://books.google.com/books?id=tSFnDppi-oMC&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=Rose+of+Versailles+bed+scene&source=bl&ots=pFDk3X3IwB&sig=4ybuE6M6z-7PtF73T1lBa7uxdNw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj72Y-Sg_3QAhUN3mMKHUycDs8Q6AEIZDAS#v=onepage&q=Rose%20of%20Versailles%20bed%20scene&f=false |
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soundofsilence
Posts: 17 |
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Maybe it was the first bed scene in something that was 'by women, for women'? |
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Wooga
Posts: 916 Location: Tucson |
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This quote is implying its the first scene female readers have seen, not the first one that ever existed. I mean I could pull up tons of examples. Tatsumi drew sex scenes before Rose of Versailles existed. Garo started in 1964 and featured erotic content. I really, really doubt manga could have existed for so long and Ikeda was the first one to 'dare' to show intimate scenes. Especially when Japan never shied away from sexual content, you can even count Hokusai as manga. |
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TezukaReader
Posts: 1 |
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Apollo's Song was not presented solely as "educational material" either. It was a regular manga serialized in Weekly Shonen King. |
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soundofsilence
Posts: 17 |
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I wish there was more in-depth information available about their works - Mari to Shingo was only added to the ANN encyclopedia today.
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Vibrant Wolf
 Posts: 109 Location: Canada |
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You gotta admit though, she did make it a lot easier for women to draw manga for boys. She took a fresh approach to harem titles and gender-bending (a subgenre that's been in use at least since Osamu Tezuka's 1953 title Princess Knight). Also, Ranma 1/2 has plenty of crossover appeal, so it's not surprising she got as popular as she did. |
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medoroa
Posts: 5 |
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I'm not going to claim the writer made stuff up as she went along, but this is a pretty dreadful article. As other people have already mentioned, the title is entirely misleading and implies shojo manga didn't change in the decades before 1975 and hasn't changed in the 40 years since (a lie), not to mention I find it pretty disrespectful to the female artists who preceded the year 24 group. But beyond that, I find the Ryoko Yamagishi section appalling! The sole proto-yuri manga Yamagishi wrote isn't what defines her influences on manga (and she didn't even mean to write a yuri manga anyway, she wanted to write about two boys but the editorial office hindered her). The Yumiko Oshima section isn't much better, implying that Wata no kunihoshi is foremost about "cute catgirls" and that's why it's culturally significant. No!
All in all, 
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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In fairness, as stated before, the original topic of the List was always going to be the Year 24 Group specifically. But we weren't going to call the column "The Year 24 Group" because people don't necessarily know what that is. So we went with "7 Women Who Changed Manga History" (not "literally every woman who changed manga history across multiple generations and time periods") and specifically mentioned that the article was talking about one highly influential generation in both the description under the title and the opening paragraph. You can take issue with the title being too simple if you wish (titles are hard to narrow down and please everyone with), but the subject matter was made clear in the article's description both before and after the jump.
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matt_thorn_en
Posts: 1 |
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There is of course no clearly defined list of members of what's called the Year 24 Group, so no one can say who does or doesn't belong on it, but this short list seems heavily weighted towards boys love, and might give a misleading impression of how important that genre was. Similarly, ignoring Yamagishi's early hit Arabesque and focusing on one short story that is more talked about than read gives the impression that she was a "yuri" creator. Yamagishi did help change shōjo manga, but not in the way implied here. I would have left out Kihara and Aoike and added Mineko Yamada and Minori Kimura. (Full disclosure: I have worked with Takemiya for 17 years at Kyoto Seika University, am Hagio's exclusive English translator, and have met Kihara.) By the way, the Japanese Wikipedia page on the the Year 24 Group confidently declares a membership of ten (including one who isn't a manga creator), but this is just some random editor presenting their own interpretation as fact without evidence.
I'm a bit surprised at all the mentions of Rumiko Takahashi and CLAMP in the comments. Setting aside the fact that they came along later, I think perhaps Anglophones have an exaggerated notion of their importance. Takahashi was the first woman to succeed in shōnen manga, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to demonstrate that she changed manga in a significant way. (Full disclosure: I was the translator of the Mermaid Series, Rumic World, the first volumes of Ranma 1/2 and Maison Ikkoku, and also a bit of LUM: Urusei Yatsura.) And CLAMP were big among otaku in the 1990s, working in a very otaku style with very otaku content, but, again, I don't see how you could argue they changed manga. Being successful and being an innovative pioneer are not the same thing. |
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Kadmos1
 Posts: 13552 Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP |
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It was this past Thursday that I did a similar MyAnimeList thread called "But who would the female equivalents for each be?" I wrote the following: "To some people, Osamu Tezuka is the God of Manga whereas Shotaro Ishinomori is the King of Manga. But who would the female equivalents for each be? By this, I mean the women that had a big impact on the manga industry. 'Queen' could also include a female manga-ka who has a large manga catalog (Rumiko Takahashi certainly does)".
User lady_freyja listed Year 24 member Hagio-san as the founding mother of modern shoujo. |
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medoroa
Posts: 5 |
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Sure, but every other criticism still stands. This article reads more like the blind leading the blind. |
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manapear
Posts: 1525 |
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Pretty much this. And while I think CLAMP has done a lot on a global scale for manga and done a few innovations, I still wouldn't call them as wholly influential as other women before them. But yes, especially on Rumiko Takahashi's name-dropping. People definitely conflate success with influence. |
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scarletrhodelia
 Posts: 34 Location: Pittsburgh, PA |
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Lynzee, thank you for this column. You have done a stellar job in talking about the Year 24 Flower Group, which has been so influential but so little-known by modern fans. I’ve given talks on the group in general and Hagio-sensei in particular at local conventions, so this topic is close to my heart. Certainly you can make a case that these women built on the work of women who preceded them, just as later authors would have had a harder time without building on their work. That doesn’t at all take away from what they have done.
How honored you must be to have Matt Thorn, the pre-eminient scholar on the 24, comment here! Whatever I know about the 24, I learned most of it from Mr. Thorn’s writings. This is my favorite of your columns, Lynzee, thank you. |
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