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EP. REVIEW: Descending Stories: Shōwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjū


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Pierrot.





PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:40 pm Reply with quote
Chocoreto wrote:
Funny how the reviewer could always draw the most spot-on conclusions during the course of this show about its plot points, character interactions and straight up symbolism, but was unable due to personal bias to recognize the elephant in this room. Unfortunately, things like that should be looked at more professionally and objectively, even though it's very hard to do when one is so emotionally invested somewhere.

It does not matter at all that it is not straight up confirmed by another character. When you look at Shinnosuke, both his face and his mannerisms, it says "KIKUHIKO" all over. Hell he literally even takes the name! This is what the show wants you to get from it! There would be no point to bring that up otherwise, unless Konatsu straight up denied it in order to reject some doubts or theories. But she doesn't do that. Instead she reinforces it, saying that she might have been in love with Yakumo, and suddenly, so many things finally make sense in so many scenes, from the very first episodes of the series! There is NO room for doubt here for the audience!

This does not ruin the series in any way, because even if it leaves a bitter taste for some people for some reasons, it is NOT bad narratively. It just forces you to re-contextualize everything in Yakumo and Konatsu's relationship up until this point. We all just assumed it was father-daughter, and maybe there was a side of that too, but this is not Usagi Drop.

So much shit has gone through between those characters. Konatsu NEVER, ever thought of Yakumo as her father. She wasn't that little when Yakumo took her in, she was already taking care of herself and was very conscious about her family status and Sukeroku being her dad. And I'm pretty sure Yakumo never changed her diapers or did much aside from providing her a house to live in and some rules to abide by, effectively raising her in his way. Their relationship was always anything other but cozy, it was agressive at best and distant at worst.

Instead of bitching, the reviewer could have just tried to analyze the reasons why this should have happened, why would Konatsu feel drawn to Yakumo and why would Yakumo let her have her way - most probably because the last time he didn't let Miyokichi have her way, all hell broke loose? There are millions of reasons for Konatsu - a father substitute, Electra's syndrome, the only person in her life, idolization about Rakugo, revenge, "you took all I had away from me so now you have to pay me back and give yourself to me", and so on. Is it fucked up? Yes it is. It is very fucked up, but it can be explained.

I understand why some might feel betrayed, because the show played us up and led us to believe in father-daughter relationship, in order to reverse everything in the end. But, did it really? Or did we just assume that way due to our cultural background, maybe?

For me it was a brilliant plot twist that left me gaping before nodding my head in understanding "oh so this is how it was". And yes it is poetic to have a child with both Yakumo's and Sukeroku's blood, but saying it reduces Konatsu to a mere vessel for those two, means ignoring her entire existence and character conflict through the series. So no, it freaking doesn't.

I repeat, Shinnosuke is Yakumo's child and there is no room for doubt about that. This should be even more obvious when rewatching the series.

I agree with everything you said. I'm surprised people are still in denial about Yakumo being Shinnosuke's father even though the author pretty much confirms it with the extra side story chapter in the last volume.


Last edited by Pierrot. on Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:21 pm Reply with quote
Oh those weird entertainment people! The hijinks they get up to! Smile

Gabriella wrote:
It also reduces Konatsu's character to a vessel through which Kiku and Suke could procreate. This runs counter to everything that Rakugo had been saying about women's autonomy – in that scenario, she would just be a body through which two men got to express themselves

Whoa, who's doing the reducing here? Not the series. Comments like these make me wonder how people view real women who choose to be surrogates for infertile couples. oO

Konatsu was a grown woman when she became pregnant and was not living with Yakumo at the time, so it's not like Yakumo was some predator perving on the innocent young girl in his home and plotting to get her pregnant. Remember that this is a man of whom Miyokichi once asked, "Does he even like women?" I assume that from time to time over the years of their relationship he gave in to Miyo, but it clearly was not out of his own desire for her. It makes little sense that he'd suddenly change his orientation to seduce her daughter or otherwise take advantage of her.

Knowing these characters as we do, it seems pretty clear to me that this is what Konatsu wanted and was determined to make happen. Just as Yakumo could never say no for long to her father's pleas for money, he probably couldn't say no to her, though I doubt he wanted another child in his household.

As to her reasons, I'll mostly take her at her word (I have trouble imagining their relations as romantic even though she used that word - there was clearly a bit of yanking Higuchi's chain going on). Regardless of whether it's offensive to some viewers, it was probably appealing to her that her child would carry the genes of Kiku, Sukeroku and Miyokichi - that's one important reason most people want to have their own kids (rather than adopt) after all, to carry on their legacy. It's probably even more important in Japan, where bloodlines matter more than in the West. Konatsu didn't have any better candidates available at the time.

But most important, she wanted to give Yakumo a reason to live and pass on his rakugo. If people don't understand the supremacy of rakugo in Konatsu's world view, they haven't been watching the series. Just as rakugo was more important to Kiku than Miyo or anything else was, it was more important to Konatsu than conforming to social mores like, you know, not being married and having a kid. She was an adult who deliberately chose to take that on with eyes wide open (regardless of who the father was in anyone's head canon) in order to have a child for Yakumo to bequeath his rakugo to. But make no mistake, that's no sacrifice she's making. It's just a selfish desire she fulfilled, but only if you think people who have kids to pass the family business on to are selfish for doing so.

But for those who still can't cope with the idea, the series graciously left an out for the viewer to believe what they want (just as it did with Kiku's orientation). Then again, Gabriella couldn't imagine Konatsu being attracted to the much older yakuza either (a bias which probably makes Yakumo even more distasteful to her), so I guess his son is the only candidate left.
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whiskeyii



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:23 pm Reply with quote
Pierrot. wrote:

I with everything you said. I'm surprised people are still in denial about Yakumo being Shinnosuke's father even though the author pretty much confirms it with the extra side story chapter in the last volume.


^Can confirm, it's legit. You can find the link to the translated Google Doc by trawling through MAL's episode 12 discussion. Thematically, I'm not as squicked out by it as I probably should be, given that this show kind of loves to dwell it its own melodrama, but I am deeply frustrated by what it reduces Konatsu to. :/ Though I can sort of buy Yakumo agreeing to all this if he thought of Kontasu as some kind of vicarious link to Sukeroku; it's hard for me to fathom him being as into Konatsu as she was into him, but him bumping uglies with the daughter as a way of trying to recapture something he never had, but still lost? That I could buy.

Gina Szanboti wrote:

Whoa, who's doing the reducing here? Not the series. Comments like these make me wonder how people view real women who choose to be surrogates for infertile couples. oO

Edited for unnecessary snark: I don't think real-life feelings towards surrogate mothers play into this at all. No mention has been made of actual surrogate mothers. Having said that:

For me, Shinnosuke seems like the next-best-thing to having Konatsu as a surrogate mother for Yakumo and Sukeroku--like the author decided she wanted this kid to exist, but obviously the tech wasn't there to allow it yet, so, boom, quasi-incest (or at least incidental child grooming). Which, for me, reduces a lot of Konatsu's accomplishments down to "she had the 'right kind' of kid" to allow rakugo to flourish, and it just leaves me giving the show some serious side-eye. And this in a show that already seemed to struggle with giving female characters the same depth as its male ones, though I did find Yakumo's almost villainous portrayal of Miyokichi more understandable given his unreliable narrator streak.


Last edited by whiskeyii on Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:46 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Angel M Cazares



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:32 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, the implication of an incestuous relationship between Konatsu and Yakumo threw me off. Like Gabriella says, that does not make sense thematically and writing wise. I wanted to dismiss all that as annoying Higuchi making shit up, but the manga seems to confirm incest, damn.

Regardless, Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinju is an excellent anime with amazing drama and probably the best character writing I have ever seen.
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AnimusPrime



Joined: 15 Feb 2015
Posts: 51
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:47 pm Reply with quote
Chrysostomus wrote:
Quote:
He seems extremely uncomfortable around women in general, much less in a sexual context[...]
Umm, did you miss the part in Japanese Purgatory where Sukeroku showed him the geishas and Yakumo was all looking excited and blushing?


Maybe you didn't see it like I did, but to me Yakumo's reaction belonged in the dictionary right next to "nonplussed"
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zrnzle500



Joined: 04 Oct 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:21 pm Reply with quote
AnimusPrime wrote:
Chrysostomus wrote:
Quote:
He seems extremely uncomfortable around women in general, much less in a sexual context[...]
Umm, did you miss the part in Japanese Purgatory where Sukeroku showed him the geishas and Yakumo was all looking excited and blushing?


Maybe you didn't see it like I did, but to me Yakumo's reaction belonged in the dictionary right next to "nonplussed"


He didn't seem confused by them, so no. Presumably you meant that as uninterested, which is a common mistake.
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AnimusPrime



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:41 pm Reply with quote
zrnzle500 wrote:
AnimusPrime wrote:
Chrysostomus wrote:
Quote:
He seems extremely uncomfortable around women in general, much less in a sexual context[...]
Umm, did you miss the part in Japanese Purgatory where Sukeroku showed him the geishas and Yakumo was all looking excited and blushing?


Maybe you didn't see it like I did, but to me Yakumo's reaction belonged in the dictionary right next to "nonplussed"


He didn't seem confused by them, so no. Presumably you meant that as uninterested, which is a common mistake.


Upon rewatch of the scene in ep 11, yea, there is exactly one shot of Yakumo looking through the bars at the courtesans, right before Miyokichi shows up, which could be interpreted as a lurid gaze... and I didn't catch that before. But, let's be honest, that shot also features Sukeroku leaning on his back, pushing him toward the courtesans. Interpret that as you will.
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Pierrot.





PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:18 pm Reply with quote
AnimusPrime wrote:
zrnzle500 wrote:
AnimusPrime wrote:
Chrysostomus wrote:
Quote:
He seems extremely uncomfortable around women in general, much less in a sexual context[...]
Umm, did you miss the part in Japanese Purgatory where Sukeroku showed him the geishas and Yakumo was all looking excited and blushing?


Maybe you didn't see it like I did, but to me Yakumo's reaction belonged in the dictionary right next to "nonplussed"


He didn't seem confused by them, so no. Presumably you meant that as uninterested, which is a common mistake.


Upon rewatch of the scene in ep 11, yea, there is exactly one shot of Yakumo looking through the bars at the courtesans, right before Miyokichi shows up, which could be interpreted as a lurid gaze... and I didn't catch that before. But, let's be honest, that shot also features Sukeroku leaning on his back, pushing him toward the courtesans. Interpret that as you will.

Eh I think you're reaching here. Yakumo wasn't looking all too exciting and blushing when Sukeroku was leaning on him even before that scene so I doubt that was the reason.
http://i.imgur.com/vd5Oeni.jpg
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:48 pm Reply with quote
Wow, people are really hung up on this, that they boil down the reveal as a bad taste as incest. Were you guys really watching the show, where do you think the incest comes in? Did everyone just rest on Konatsu and Yakumo's relationship being father daughter, because up to the end it never seemed to properly rest on that. Really watching the show kind of made it clear that there was a huge amount of different emotions involved, and regardless of what Konatsu was even teasing about on the discussion, it was not romantic either. Remember that Konatsu is indeed a story teller, and like what her childhood guardian did with telling his story, little details could be changed to play up a particular narrative. This does not mean we throw out everything we saw because we only know facts like her guardian slept with her, because this show has made it abundantly clear that life is filled with very complex things.

I do think we can take all of the more modern stuff at more face value and we can come to some logic conclusions. Yakumo could give the impression of seducer of women like when he worked in that café in his younger years, but he really was not, he was pretty dedicated to his art through the years, a serious guy and self loathing in some areas. Konatsu very strongly considered Sukeroku as her father, and never the guy that took her in, and as a child herself she was practically looking after herself, and had a tornado of different feelings about the man who raised her from: hatred as a replacement to her true father, a man who did not defend her father's place in the art he loved at the time and left him depressed for most of her young life with him, a worry of being abandoned, complexes of being like her mother. Her femineity was often even put into question where as represented by comments by Yakumo were of her being a tomboy, and that with the culture it maybe poisoned her worth as a woman, but please don't take that him grooming her as that is a gross misunderstanding. And you really have all her thoughts which involved Rakugo, where the culture made it that she could not perform, and despite that she did have a huge respect for the art and was regardless a fan of both her father and childhood guardian. She wanted to keep their legacy.

Konatsu was a dang adult woman when whatever event it was that went down, the number one thing she wanted to make about that time period was that she could look after herself. She could make her own decisions, she had agency with her own actions, and she was not at the whims Yakumo at that time. Any way you slice it she gives the strongest impression that whatever it was, it was her decision, and it kind of came down to Yotaro who said he cared about Konatsu and wanted to look after her, and regardless of what their relationship was, that was kind of the family that was never really in place before. Yotaro also made it clear that regardless of the messy stuff, Shin was his son, and I think that it is meaningful as a concept that everything should be taken in terms of context, with some times an understanding of a history, but also just as often going down to the bare meaning behind something. Know what the words mean with history of the piece, but as Yotaro said something can just have meaning in the moment like a rant being funny because a rant is funny. We have quite the understanding of the whirlwind of emotions with Konatsu, but also that their relationship lacked the familial titles of father and daughter, or really of lovers. The end result was Shin, a kid who it would be simply wrong to call a mistake. Konatsu was happy to be past the time, so just enjoy how it ended.

And on a small mention of another commenter that Shin seemed to lose his charm he had a kid. Well, he was old enough now to have worries about things, he was in ways like Yakumo 8th, he matured. But just look at the performance he made and you can see his child self being used for the kid, that the charming precocious brat is still inside.
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whiskeyii



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:03 pm Reply with quote
^Yeah, my issue isn't really with Konatsu as a character or with her motivations. My issue is more with Yakumo. This is the second series with a father-daughter relationship that entirely skips over the "How the heck did the father figure agree to this" phase in favor of a "it just happened" off-screen moment. And I'm not saying we needed to see Konatsu and Yakumo in bed or anything, but given Yakumo's history, I do think it's a little much to jump from Point A to Point Q and just expect the audience to go with it, no questions asked. (And I'd be lying if I didn't admit to thinking this was the mangaka's version of writing a cop-out by essentially skipping over the "hard part" of this relationship.)

For me personally, I can't say that any explanation would have made this more acceptable per se, but it would've at least made it more understandable.
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Gina Szanboti



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:23 am Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:
Though I can sort of buy Yakumo agreeing to all this if he thought of Kontasu as some kind of vicarious link to Sukeroku; it's hard for me to fathom him being as into Konatsu as she was into him, but him bumping uglies with the daughter as a way of trying to recapture something he never had, but still lost? That I could buy.

...

(or at least incidental child grooming).

How did Yakumo become such a monster in your eyes, given everything we know about him? oO Rather than procreating with her for Sukeroku's sake, maybe Konatsu guilt-tripped him into giving her the baby he denied to Miyokichi (even if Konatsu wanted it for other reasons). People (ironically) seem to forget Konatsu isn't only her father's daughter.

Since it seems you've read the side story, I'm really at a loss as to how you can see his actions in raising her as grooming. He realized she was forming a romantic image of him, and was not at all pleased by it.

And to reiterate what others have said, Yakumo was never a father figure in Konatsu's eyes. Had she come to view the man she believed killed her real father as his replacement, it would have been such a betrayal of him that I can't see her being able to stand living with herself. Which might be part of why she sublimated her feelings toward him as a caretaker into a role as a lover, however briefly. That's ironic too, since sublimation is usually a defense against socially unacceptable desires by transforming them into acceptable ones, and she took it in the opposite direction because that's what was most acceptable to her and she never gave a shit about what society thought.

I'm completely at a loss to understand how anyone could look at Konatsu as any sort of victim, or that her character lacked depth or had her accomplishments reduced to nothing. In the end, she got everything she wanted: two children by the men she wanted to father them, her life not ruined by an out-of-wedlock child (which is saying something for that era), a husband who loves her whom she loves in return, a community of friends and admirers, and a career in Rakugo. That's more than a lot of people get.
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DuskyPredator



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:44 am Reply with quote
I did kind of skip over the Yakumo side, which did because it was already running a little long and that it would too much like a wall of text. But lets look at it from Yakumo's side:

From a boy it would seem that he himself is stuck between masculinity and femininity, he was taken from being a dancer, something more feminine, to being a rakugo performer, something strictly for men. That might seem like this is being irrelevant, but I think that this is important to put Yakumo into the place it likely took place, the geisha house. Yakumo has really been drawn to that place all his life, in the sort of alternate path cut off from him due to his gender, just as it was kind of put onto Miyokichi, and even Konatsu when this took place. It is a sort of serene environment, but also quite sexual, at least that is how it always seemed to be with how this worked with Miyokichi, and how it quite likely something cut off from him after losing certain people. This is not saying he would be horny there and jump on Konatsu, but how she probably wore down his resolve, that the act was something Konatsu wanted for a whole bunch of reasons. And that emotions on Yakumo's side like guilt and thoughts of his old friends that he could see in Konatsu probably all erupted in one even where it might be easy to say it was a mistake.

They were not dating, and if there was anything Konatsu made clear in her childhood of anger towards him, he was not her father. You probably could call them family, and you could say it was along the path to be more healthy when her father was alive, but it grew toxic, and that alone probably made him feel guilty that he could not provide one. And perhaps from her telling him to give her one, it created a moment of weakness. Like how Sukeroku fled the rakugo scene to make Miyokichi happy, despite the fact that he was not the one she loved. People do all sort of stupid or morally questionable things in moments of weakness when they give into the thoughts on wanting to protect someone or not wanting to be alone. Such stories of decisions of such topics can be so complex in what makes them up, that it is not easy to try and explain the different parts, so classic stories like those in Rakugo kind flourish for their more clear message, but occasionally a story just needs to have little touches like a character not dying or how someone died changed to make it a little more palatable. Is there worth to these little changes for the audience's sake, because the show kind of said that yes, it should.
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Merida



Joined: 21 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:36 am Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:

I'm completely at a loss to understand how anyone could look at Konatsu as any sort of victim, or that her character lacked depth or had her accomplishments reduced to nothing. In the end, she got everything she wanted: two children by the men she wanted to father them, her life not ruined by an out-of-wedlock child (which is saying something for that era), a husband who loves her whom she loves in return, a community of friends and admirers, and a career in Rakugo. That's more than a lot of people get.


I agree. My initial negative reaction was mostly due to my finding this development unnecessary but i never thought that Konatsu was the victim here.

As much as i usually like Gabriella's writing, her four paragraphs of "ew, gross!" weren't very enlightening, but i hope she's feeling better now? Wink Also, comparing this show to "that certain other series" like some people did here, isn't very helpful either. That series was all about showing us a heartwarming father/daughter relationship, in order to crap all over it in the end, SGRS's "father/daughter" (if you insist on calling it that) relationship was never the focus of the show and anything but heartwarming...

So in the end, i'm still not much of a fan of this part of the story but i can understand and accept it and it sure doesn't "ruin" the show for me because it had so much more to offer.
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Maidenoftheredhand



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:11 am Reply with quote
I can't say I am too happy about the revelation but I like Usagi Drop there is so much more to the series than the relationship of Kiku raising Konatsu. This was ultimately never the focus of the story. And I wonder how much Kiku actually raised Konatsu beyond provinding for her.

That doesn't make it less creepy necessarily but I also feel like the author's purpose was to create an even stronger bond between Yakumo & Sukeruko, a sort of love story. And Shinnoske who is now continuing their Rakugo is sort of the culmination of that love story. Yes it's a very untraditional way to show it but then this series was very unique in my opinion.

Also Konatsu very much loves Yotaro. He's her husband and family and still Shinnoske's father.
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:50 am Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:

How did Yakumo become such a monster in your eyes, given everything we know about him? oO Rather than procreating with her for Sukeroku's sake, maybe Konatsu guilt-tripped him into giving her the baby he denied to Miyokichi (even if Konatsu wanted it for other reasons). People (ironically) seem to forget Konatsu isn't only her father's daughter.

Since it seems you've read the side story, I'm really at a loss as to how you can see his actions in raising her as grooming.


That's why I had "incidental" in front of "child-grooming". I don't think Yakumo intended to have sex with Konatsu from the start, but if he was aware of it during her teenage years, he sure as heck didn't do enough to dissuade her later which, if that's not at least tangential child grooming, than it's skeevy as hell.

But this:
Quote:
He realized she was forming a romantic image of him, and was not at all pleased by it.
is exactly my point. If Yakumo was so very put off by the idea, how did we go from "No way, Jose!" to "Let's bang, okay?" As you pointed out, there are plenty of non-character-derailing ways to make it work, but the show just glosses over all of them and expects you to go "Well, that was a thing".

As for Konatsu, this may be entirely my own projection, but I cannot shake the feeling that Shinnosuke's whole existence was the result of the mangaka reeeeally wanting to feature the love-child of Kiku and Sukeroku, but she wrote herself into a logistical corner about it and had to do some serious mental gymnastics to get there. And I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of Shinnosuke existing in the first place--I will admit to it being tantalizingly poetic--but you'd have to do a lot of narrative heavy lifting to convince me that this particular development isn't jarring and out of place for Yakumo's character.

EDIT: And yeah, I get what the show was going for by drawing parallels between Konatsu and Yakumo and their secret-keeping, but damn, if I don't find the execution of it sort of cheap and half-baked.
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