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#861208



Joined: 07 Oct 2016
Posts: 263
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:46 am Reply with quote
Hand Shakers, of all shows, actually ends up having an interesting salaryman pair in episode 3. A very competent woman who looks underage, and her subordinate, a really weak-willed guy who gets mistaken for her boss, because of stereotypes, and it frustrates both of them, and they're fighting to get rid of stereotypes and things like that...

yeah, it actually got better after that.... pretty awful first episode.
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MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:59 am Reply with quote
In Black Lagoon, Rocks story arc at the beginning is escaping from the harsh life of a Salaryman. Which speaks volumes if working in what is basically Johannesburg, is better than being a Salaryman.
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maximilianjenus



Joined: 29 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:13 am Reply with quote
I find this really funny, becuase I just read a thread in another site at how usa workers are workaholics whom pursue money rather than quality of life, compared to europeans, yet this shows that a more awful extreme exists with the japanese.
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Peter Hunt



Joined: 20 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:48 am Reply with quote
Wow, I don’t know if he was being polite, taking the mickey or just plain messed up; but having an obvious spelling error so soon in both the question (officer) and the answer (about) makes you wonder.
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Gemnist



Joined: 10 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:27 pm Reply with quote
So, Tanya the Evil was reincarnated as a psychopathic WWI flying witch girl... because she was a bad businessman. We love you, anime.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:42 pm Reply with quote
In-house doctors? That's interesting. I read pretty recently that hospitals in Japan have normal office hours, even emergency rooms, so if you get hurt and need medical help, and the hospitals are closed, you're out of luck.

maximilianjenus wrote:
I find this really funny, becuase I just read a thread in another site at how usa workers are workaholics whom pursue money rather than quality of life, compared to europeans, yet this shows that a more awful extreme exists with the japanese.


The United States is definitely somewhere in between Japan and western/central Europe, with businesspeople working long hours and driven to finishing their goals, but in general, the individual comes first--if there is something that happens to a person that negatively affects their ability to work, you have stuff like workers compensation and sick leave required by the law. It does vary depending on a company-by-company basis though (but nothing that would be illegal, even if some companies I've worked for barely skirt the line and all-out cheat when the government's not looking). But at the same time, there isn't this level of sociality and relaxed feel I see in European office workplaces.
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Lord Geo



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:45 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Probably nobody satirized the salaryman better than Katsuhiro Otomo, whose feature film Roujin Z and segment of Neo-Tokyo ("The Order to Stop Construction") offer a searing indictment of corporate culture run amok.


And, to offer up examples of the polar opposite, you have series like Hiroshi Motomiya's Salaryman Kintaro & Kenshi Hirokane's Kosaku Shima franchise. Both are meant to be portrayals of what salarymen wish their lives could be like, with Kintaro being the Onizuka-esque man who does his job the way he feels like it (& not getting outright murdered for doing so) & Kosaku Shima being the ideal example of someone who works his way from a measly little salaryman all the way to the top, all while somehow managing to keep a wife & children at the same time.

But, yeah, the life of a salaryman doesn't sound all too good at all, which is why fictional portrayals are always either indictments or unrealistic ideals.
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12skippy21



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:22 pm Reply with quote
I work for a multinational and as such have worked with countless nationalities and you see a lot of variation even within Europe. I prefer working with Americans because they aim to get the job done while also being open minded about how it is done. East Asians are good workers but are difficult to move on certain issues if they have already made up their mind (especially Chinese).

I actually think British and Austrialians are the most difficult to work with as they are liable to laziness. I have dealt with them more often though and workers who work away from their home countries do tend to be hard working (such as East Europeans).
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mbanu



Joined: 11 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:24 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
There are a few Westerners who manage to move to Japan and function in a Japanese corporation, but just as many end up feeling stifled and disheartened in that sort of work environment. It's not one that encourages "thinking outside the box" or any real expression of individuality. If you are raised to require those things -- and many of us are -- it's probably not a life that will appeal to us.


Does the average "non-creative" U.S. worker really get more freedom to express individuality or think outside the box? I mean, when you can get fired for any reason and pensions don't exist, rocking the boat isn't always the best decision...
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NateSelwyn25



Joined: 20 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:45 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
In-house doctors? That's interesting. I read pretty recently that hospitals in Japan have normal office hours, even emergency rooms, so if you get hurt and need medical help, and the hospitals are closed, you're out of luck.


Misconception. Emergency departments have "regular hours" for non-emergency care. If you are hit by a car at 1am, a staff is there to take care of you. If you got a bad cold coming on, you're told to wait until the morning.
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:46 pm Reply with quote
mbanu wrote:
Does the average "non-creative" U.S. worker really get more freedom to express individuality or think outside the box? I mean, when you can get fired for any reason and pensions don't exist, rocking the boat isn't always the best decision...


Based on my experiences, it varies depending on the employer. (That could mean the company itself, or it could mean the individual whom you're working for.) I've worked for companies where you are to strictly obey all of the rules and suggestions are brushed aside or seen as insubordination ("Do you think you can do our jobs better than us?"), and I've worked for companies where I've been given a lot of latitude as long as the task is finished in a satisfactory manner.

Probably depends on what the organization does too. I doubt people working minimum wage work have much say in how they do things, whereas government work is much more goal-oriented.

12skippy21 wrote:
I work for a multinational and as such have worked with countless nationalities and you see a lot of variation even within Europe. I prefer working with Americans because they aim to get the job done while also being open minded about how it is done. East Asians are good workers but are difficult to move on certain issues if they have already made up their mind (especially Chinese).

I actually think British and Austrialians are the most difficult to work with as they are liable to laziness. I have dealt with them more often though and workers who work away from their home countries do tend to be hard working (such as East Europeans).


I heard on the radio an interview with someone who works with east Asian companies, though I don't remember who he was or what he did. He said that the Chinese businesspeople he partners with, unlike their American counterparts, are unforgiving of things that don't sell well and are ready to cut ties with any foreign company that don't have consistent and flawless success.

While there are many things I find wrong with the American public school systems, one thing I think they get right that some other countries don't is openness: When given an assignment, like a test or homework, most teachers don't care how you got to the answer, as long as the answer is correct and you didn't cheat for it. That sort of thinking, I believe, permeates the American workplace, where some employers don't care what you do to achieve your goal as long as you achieve it in the timeframe given to you. My mom, who grew up in a country whose schools didn't work this way, made comment on it every now and then and found it interesting (and I wouldn't have noticed it if not for her explaining to me the more rigid way students had to produce answers when she was a kid).

NateSelwyn25 wrote:
Misconception. Emergency departments have "regular hours" for non-emergency care. If you are hit by a car at 1am, a staff is there to take care of you. If you got a bad cold coming on, you're told to wait until the morning.


Good! It'd be horrible if they didn't have that. (I'd imagine that with salarymen getting drunk with their bosses, there must be a lot of drunk drivers late at night, for that matter.)
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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:01 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
In-house doctors? That's interesting. I read pretty recently that hospitals in Japan have normal office hours, even emergency rooms, so if you get hurt and need medical help, and the hospitals are closed, you're out of luck.


I think you are confusing small clinics (which are a common sight in many neighbors where you receive treatment for common illness) with full fledged hospitals with doctors capable of performing surgeries. Having i.e. a traffic or construction (in Tokyo Ghoul) accident, It would be beyond kafka for people requiring urgent surgery and be told to return in business hour. What I was told by my japanese teacher a decade ago is that ambulances in japan do not have paramedics, so you better stay alive (or bring yourself back like Jiraiya did in Naruto) until you reach the hospital.
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EricJ2



Joined: 01 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:05 pm Reply with quote
To a generation that grew up with 80's anime, Ataru's dad Mr. Moroboshi, always hiding behind his newspaper on Urusei Yatsura and worrying about the mortgage, will be our one decade-iconic image of the 80's-Japan Salaryman.

Back during the Bubble, when Japan honestly believed that corporate beehives were the strategy with which they would conquer the world, pretty much all Japanese employment and ambition seemed to revolve around corporate middle-management status (especially when more things are managed in Japanese business strategy), and individuality and family life was not encouraged.
Much of the current aimlessness, the frustrated attraction to Abe-era militarism, the rise of pressure-cracked hikkikomori and mainstream society's need to blame EVERY problem on them and their love of anime/Internet, all seem to stem from a country that suddenly found their national dignity without a Plan B to fall back on.
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Zin5ki
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:26 pm Reply with quote
12skippy21 wrote:
I actually think British and Austrialians are the most difficult to work with as they are liable to laziness. I have dealt with them more often though and workers who work away from their home countries do tend to be hard working (such as East Europeans).

It is not laziness, it is mere stress-aversion! That Twitter window I conceal behind a terminal is there for the sake of my general well-being!

When reading today's article, I could not help but be reminded of Blue Eyed Salaryman by Niall Murtagh, a book from a decade ago that chronicles the experiences of a westerner working in Mitsubishi's head offices. An informative perspective on the matter, from what I recall.
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Mr. sickVisionz



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:38 pm Reply with quote
This week's article made me laugh. I guess the questioner is unfamiliar with the concept of employment or white collar/office work.

[quote="mbanu"]
Quote:
Does the average "non-creative" U.S. worker really get more freedom to express individuality or think outside the box? I mean, when you can get fired for any reason and pensions don't exist, rocking the boat isn't always the best decision...


No. I've worked retail, housing, vendor management, food service, warehouse, database related tasks. Outside of the color socks you wear, you are not encouraged to express individuality and all thinking outside of the box is only welcomed if you can tangibly put money into the hands of a faceless corporation (or manager, without making said manager feel threatened that your abilities may dictate you have their job some day) while requesting/requiring no share of said money yourself or increased pay later.

Japan is not alone is *working to death* or soul crushing jobs. I've worked on jobs where I was pulled to side and talked to because I wrote "Good Morning" on an email rather than "Good morning". That job was not one that was all about individuality and thinking outside the box and that was a "good job" by most metrics.
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