Forum - View topicIncest in Anime/Hentai: A Theory
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Chiibi
 Posts: 4829 |
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I'm sorry but you guys made me laugh out loud.  Blood, you're such a riot. I bet you're fun at parties.
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13227 |
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Sure, but Game of Thrones is the only legitimate mainstream success (that I know of) that features plenty of incest.
This is a popular belief, but it's simply not true. Sure, there are only children who are drawn to it due to unrealistic ideas of what sibling relationships are like, but the other side of that are people who have siblings they don't get along with and thus fantasize about having a loving sibling. I'm the latter. There's no shortage of hentai where the sister openly hates the brother (usually for being a fat, disgusting otaku) only for the brother to, ahem, "change her mind." So the 'perfect angel imouto' isn't the default portrayal.
I read one once that when doing it with her son the mother said "Welcome back." I think that sums up pretty well why even I am not a fan of the idea. Either that, or like Freud said we're all afraid our fathers will cut off our penises
Yeah, that's probably it. Even the most devoted otaku will chew some one out for not knowing the difference between 2D and 3D. It being 2D makes it easier to distinguish from reality so even the most hardcore of stuff can be enjoyed since "it's just a cartoon, it's not real." Whereas a live action work might make people think of it in terms of real people which our ingrained morality might scold us for. I certainly have things I can tolerate in an anime that I'd be disgusted by in reality. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23770 |
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Best. Line. Evar. |
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Cam0
 Posts: 4888 |
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Surely the dude responded with "I'm home"?
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Crisha
Moderator
 Posts: 4290 |
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OMG, folks.
Country roads, take me home To the place I belong West Virginia, mountain momma Take me home, country roads -- Ballad of the devoted son to his beloved Momma |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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Hold on, lemme check... Nope, he doesn't. We do get this gem, though: 
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Freelance_Philosopher
Posts: 20 |
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The reason is two-fold, but exceedingly simple.
1. For the Author The otaku creating these works have virtually zero experience with females outside of their immediate families. Therefore, all of their fantasies, lusts and fixations get projected onto the sister. These fantasies are formed from the raw materials of their experiences, and all of their experiences concerning contact with females derives from familial interaction. This is also why mother-son incest stories are found palatable by Japanese audiences while virtually no western content is based on that. It's also related to why all the late-night anime are based on the high school setting with such obsessive uniformity. Because even as adults, the creators have no experience with females in any other context, and frankly don't have the imagination to come up with scenarios in which young males have opportunities for contact with girls. Notice you don't have ANY harem rom-coms featuring 20-something promiscuous bargoers and nightclubbers, which contrasts the west's primary fixation with that milieu as the go-to plausible well of erotic possibilities (Sex & the City, Girls, Entourage). Manga-ka and animators with better-than-average imagination tend to go outside of these highly stereotyped, repetitious tropes entirely, but the middle-of-the-road material will always be created by authors with impoverished experiential source material. 2. For the Viewer Just the flipside of the same complex: the otaku watching these shows have virtually zero experience with women outside of their families, and then high school. The shows cater to them (or, if you want to be pejorative, pander to them) by fulfilling whatever fantasies they have. For the erotic scenarios to be viewed as relatable and plausible, they must be derived from those settings. High school is more strongly charged with erotic possibility, but its also more fraught with peril, risk of humiliation, rejection, and just plain mean bitches. The little sister is far less threatening than the sexy classmates, so she will be favored and fetishized to the extent that the hot co-ed is too scary. But in any event, your typical otaku-consumer is far less imaginative than even the most mediocre anime writer, so their fantasies are deeply limited to, you guessed it, their sisters and then to their scarier classmates. After high school, they don't meet women anymore, and their stunted imaginations can't even generate fantasies of situations in which they might have erotically-promising interactions with females. Their desires and development remain arrested at that stage of maturation. In come incest ero-anime and late-night high-school anime to satisfy the only fantasies their limited experiences have ever granted them. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23770 |
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Interesting comments, Freelance-Philospher. Out of curiousity, are your views of content creators and the demographic they are trying to reach backed up by actual knowledge? Your characterization of authors and otaku conform to the stereotypes in my head, but my stereotypes don't come from direct knowledge, only what I have gleaned from the internet and from backwards engineering assumptions based on the content itself. What I don't have is direct knowledge of what kind of people are creating incest themed anime or direct knowledge of the otaku who are consuming it. Do you live in Japan? Have spent time there? Since tone is sometimes hard to read on the Interwebs, please understand I am asking these questions from genuine curiousity as opposed to trying to bait you in any way. Your views are extremely well-expressed, but I'm just wondering how much of them are based on first-hand knowledge.
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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If I'm being perfectly frank, Freelance_Philosopher's post came off as extremely condescending and elitist.
Also, he forgets the fact that the little sister almost never wins in the end of mainstream works. So it does encourage seeking out people outside the family rather than just settling for the 'safe' sibling who loves you. |
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Freelance_Philosopher
Posts: 20 |
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No, I've never been [my first trip there will be this coming July/August], and I don't personally know any manga-ka who have told me all about their impure thoughts regarding their sisters. Just as Grampa Simpson said, "I've seen a loooooootta movies..."
While my impressions are certainly based on my viewing of the content (deep, extensive, untoward and obsessivist viewing, to be precise), I don't consider it "back-engineered." The truest way to know a value system is to view the fantasies and conflicts depicted in the creations of its artists. The images on screen and paper are a hell of a lot more honest than the answer would be if you approached some otaku on an Akihabara street corner and asked, "Why do you enjoy incest-peppered late-night anime?" In Japanese pop culture, the favored tropes are repeated to the point of oppressiveness. After a while there is absolutely no mistaking the socio-psychological pattern they manifest. And it's not just "stereotypes we have in our head," it's all highly corroborated with the survey results and economic reports from Japan that get posted on ANN all the time. Japanese young men constantly report deep hopelessness regarding the prospects of sex and marriage, and the women constantly report unattainable expectations of economic return on romantic relationships. This all manifests as Japan's woeful, telltale birth rate. ...And, more importantly: hot hot sexy anime. Bless though benighted boys. |
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Freelance_Philosopher
Posts: 20 |
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Nice to meetcha, Frank. I'm Free_Phi. I'll try to use fewer big words in future posts.
Just the fact she's there at all separates these stories widely from western acceptable tropes. And she's always there in late night anime. And guess what: she's the only one with any convincing humanity to her persona. Little tsundere Yuuki from ToLove Ru is the only one of the bunch who acts like a real girl, at turns affectionate and irate at her brother. The rest of the bunch are purely the stuff of wish-fulfillment, without any habits or motivations that reflect real women in the least. They are all just ersatz, vapid automatons there to lust after Rito for no good reason whatsoever. And then there Yosuga no Sora, where the sister DOES win. This is completely unforgivable by western mores.
If you're looking for a moral to these titillating tales of bouncing bosoms and guilty pleasures...well I just don't know what to tell you. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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Hey, that's Perfectly Frank to you.
Big words aren't the issue. It's your sweeping generalization and obvious negative opinion of otaku and authors who appeal to those otaku. It's the exact same rhetoric I see from the type of anime fan who's all "mass appeal shows are garbage! They should only make artistic and intelligent shows for smart and handsome people like me!" Maybe that's unintentional on your part, but claims like "titillating tales of bouncing bosoms" can't have morals aren't helping matters.
You mean Mikan, right? Sounds like you find her quite appealing. She's definitely up there on the best girl list (I'm partial to Yui myself).
So being a genuinely nice guy who cares for and respects the girls around him, accepting them all despite a bunch of them being aliens isn't a good reason? It's funny you'd bring up To Love Ru, though. It's written by a woman and the main artist was married and has a daughter (who he has custody of). Hell, Haruna was actually modeled after his ex-wife (who was a two faced monster of a human being but that's another story). So you saying creators have no interaction with women outside of their families doesn't apply to arguably the biggest fanservice series currently running. As for Yosuga no Sora, he only banged his sister in one possible storyline. That show is hardly what I'd call a mainstream success anyways and the relationship was portrayed as something harmful and unacceptable. |
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Freelance_Philosopher
Posts: 20 |
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Au contraire. I am muy simpatico with all the world's otaku. I feel their pain.
How can that sound like a bad thing by any measure???
Ah yes, that's the one. woops.
Gimme a break. He's not "nice" he's devoid of personality altogether. He doesn't "respect" them--the facial expressions with which he responds to the female form are a blend of revulsion, horror and panic.
I can't find any support for the writer of either the manga (Saki Hasemi, a man), or the anime (Akatsuki Yamatoya, a man), being a woman.
Yes yes yes, eventually they get married, long after their fantasies and erotic sensibilities are entrenched and ossified enough to be able to give the audience what they want successfully. I'm not saying not a single manga-ka ever got laid. My point is that the final product shows that despite their eventual adoption of the trappings of adulthood, their minds and lusts are those of frustrated, timid and hopeless adolescents. These are the impulses that play out in the incest fantasies that the OP wants to explore.
It's all relative, and so what?
But also titillating, and in any event the depiction only varies from the one in TLR and dozens of other ecchi shows by degree and explicitness. The impulse being serviced is the same. OP wants to know where it comes from in general, making generalizations necessary to posit any answer. It's a "common denominator" situation, and if you seriously think that otaku and otaku authors don't share--in general--difficulty with romantic relationships, then again...I don't know what to tell you. because that's, like, what makes them otaku. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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Have you really never come across any artsy fartsy types ranting about how fanservice shows are all garbage for degenerates because they have no deeper meanings or messages? It's a pretty common thing.
A rock is devoid of personality. It's impossible for any creature capable of any sort of expression to be devoid of personality. And yes, it is respectful to cover your eyes and apologise when you accidentally see a woman in a state of undress, especially when she didn't purposely show it to you. Yes, it is respectful to turn down a woman's advances when you don't have feelings for them. Rito is a true gentleman. If he took advantage of every girl he lands on top of he'd just be a scumbag.
For the longest time I remember everyone saying it was a woman. My mistake, then. But do you know what sort of works more frequently portray taboo relationships actually coming to fruition, often with consummation? Shoujo manga. That's right, works written by females for females usually go all the way with the only real difference being the amount of skin shown.
No, what makes some one an otaku is that they are a hardcore fan of something. I won't say that the "herbivore man" isn't a thing but your original post read to me like you were saying "all otaku are sexless losers who live in their parents' basement" which is a stereotype thrown around a lot. Perhaps my years of exposure to that stereotype coloured my perception and I misinterpreted your post. In which case, my bad. Now to bring things back on topic a bit, I dare you to look up the School Days family tree and keep your sanity. |
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Freelance_Philosopher
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I differ from those people in that they expect late-night anime to be something other than mindless titillating fodder. I think I differ from you in that same respect, and even more so, because you seem to profess to find something in them other than that.
Rito isn't a "creature." He's a collection of well-drafted but ill-conceived drawings conveying only neutered blandness. I've stubbed my toe on plenty of rocks with more "personality."
The fact that you're trying to apply rules of etiquette and ethics to the outlandish and hyperbolically artificial scenarios of ToLove-Ru is astonishing. It's fap material period full stop. NTTAWWT.
Oh I have no doubt that the repression of Japanese females leads them deep into mirror-image kinks. But that's irrelevant to the question posed in this thread.
That's very much not the connotation of the term otaku in Japan. It's very much an epithet there, connoting shame and chronic social withdrawal. Here, fans have just been more successful at "owning" the expression, so that it can mean what you think it means. I acknowledge that it does mean deep withdrawal--I simply don't disdain it or assign any normative critique of it.
So...I take that as a spoiler...? |
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