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Answerman - Is Subway Groping Really A Big Deal In Japan?


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Shaterri



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 173
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:07 pm Reply with quote
Agent355 wrote:
And do some people believe that women are more prone to lies and deceit as a form of abusive behavior than men are?


I think there's likely some lingering perception that since women are 'less capable' (feh) of retaliating physically they're more likely to be abusive through other means. There's also the depressing fact that the standard for what constitutes lies and deceit almost surely has a strong societal gender bias. For instance, studies appear to show that women are held to a higher ethical standard than men, as measured for instance by prosecutions of ABA violations: http://www.npr.org/2016/06/02/480487259/women-held-to-higher-ethical-standard-than-men-study-shows

(This is getting waaaaay afield, but I just fine the study in the quoted link so fascinating and the results so frustratingly... confirmational, perhaps, that I feel like it's worth sharing.)
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar


Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 16935
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:23 pm Reply with quote
Alright this childish and ignorant crap from both of you Paiprince and Blood stops now. Paiprine you are being unbelievably rude and misogynistic and blatantly trolling/flaming this discussion. You do this often in political related topics and have been moderated before for this behavior. You Blood are jumping right to blatantly insulting users with rude and ignorant comments and going to pick fights. You've also been moderated before. \Given your histories this is the only warning either of you are getting in this thread. Either cut the crap or just move on to another thread.

As for the rest of the discussion lets cut it out with the backseat psychology/sociology degrees shall we. I've seen enough reports from this thread. Thanks.
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#Verso.Sciolto





PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:06 am Reply with quote
0nsen wrote:
If it's such a big problem, why don't they just make it so that trains won't get so crowded that you literally cannot help but bump into everyone. If they stuff more people in a train than there is actually space, it's kind of a self made problem.
No "if" about it. We passed that station. Groping is a problem. That has been established.

Who are "they"?
"... a self made problem." Whose?
I find your train of thought hard to follow.
Are you saying groped women are doing it to themselves? By not creating a society in which -and train system on which- "they" can feel safe, to travel, unmolested?

A little up track a survey of 16 major cities around the world was posted. In one of the articles, attached to the: "Exclusive-poll: Abused on Paris Metro? Don't expect help from others, say women", it says: "Figures showed that 86 percent of women in Tokyo were not confident of getting help from other passengers [...]".

Does that make the protagonists, of Ore Monogatari and Kuzu no Honkai, outliers or don't the expectations of the surveyed women reflect the reality of the situation on actual trains? It would be interesting if even Kuzu no Honkai was too optimistic, in its depiction of the train ride of two young women, strangers up to that point.

Would the molestation problem go away if there were more trains, or special carriages to segregate potential victims from their potential assailants? That it is not a real solution of the underlying issues is acknowledged in another one of the articles already linked for the, Exclusive poll, no pun intended, I'm sure.
http://news.trust.org/item/20141029000109-vl19z/?source=spotlight

More trains during peak rush when school girls -like "Yamato" and "Ebato"- travel to and from school, would be welcomed by virtually all who ride these trains at those times. Reducing passenger density and increasing train frequency has been on the agenda of most transportation companies for various reasons.

It doesn't address the root problem, however. Thinking that it does hides what is really going on and it isn't "cannot help but bump into everyone ... " The problem is perpetuated by a specific group of people and the target remains a specific group of different people. The way you lump "them" together can't obscure that....
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5821
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:58 am Reply with quote
NeverConvex wrote:
I don't understand why there are so many people reacting defensively to folks critical of a widespread problem in Japan. A lot of it seems to be rooted in the idea that westerners/Americans/etc are behaving hypocritically as some kind of abstract group, but the actual posters in this thread who are judging/criticizing/expressing concern over the Japanese train-groping problem don't seem to be claiming the West/the US are without their own problems.

It goes to this old saying:

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2269
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:48 pm Reply with quote
Thread seems to be dying out in the wake of Psycho's mod post, but I wanted to quickly circle back around to the groping problem versus ridership density question I posted earlier. I didn't have time yesterday to dig up any relevant ridership density statistics, but I got off work early today so I thought I'd poke about a bit and share what I found. (Hopefully this doesn't count as the recently outlawed "armchair sociology"!)

I can't seem to find counts on the number of cars in any of the major rail systems, but ridership and station counts are available for most of them. Doing my best to ignore suburban counts:

City - Ridership - Stations - Estimated Density - Grope Ranking
Mexico City - 4M - 195 - 0.0228M - 1
Bogota - 2.2M - 147 - 0.0149M - 2
Lima - 0.32M - 26 - 0.0123M - 3
Tokyo - 40M - 882 - 0.0454M - 4
Delhi - 2.661M - 160 - 0.0166M - 5
Jakarta - 0.336M - 223 - 0.0015M - 6
Manila - 0.650K - 13 - 0.05M - 7
Moscow - 6.7M - 203 - 0.0330M - 8
Buenos Aires - 1.11M - 86 - 0.0129M - 9
Beijing - 5.2M - 123 - 0.0422M - 10
Seoul - 7.175M - 447 - 0.0160M - 11
Bangkok - 1.225M - 79 - 0.0155M - 12
Kuala Lumpur - ????? - 13
New York City - 5.65M - 425 - 0.0133M - 14
London - 4.8M - 270 - 0.0178M - 15
Paris - 4.21M - 303 - 0.0139M - 16

Many of these figures are imperfect in a number of easily spotted ways (e.g. I got sleepy and stopped trying to figure out what to put for Kuala Lumpur, I'm pretty sure the 40M figure for greater Tokyo ridership includes suburban traffic, Lima also has an important bus system but wiki didn't have ridership statistics for it, in some cases I've just picked whichever of the bus system or rail system was easier to find/seemed more important, the wiki on China's system is awfully vague and outdated, Seoul's system might actually have even more stations than recorded above somehow, etc etc)...

...and even if the above figures were all perfectly accurate station / ridership counts, I'm not sure how much different systems vary in the number or size of train cars they have per station, and even if that were known, average daily ridership per unit of available space may not track onto actual experienced person-density very well if some systems have more unequal distributions across their various lines than others...

But even crude statistics are fun! The Kendall's Tau correlation coefficient relating the cities' ridership density ranks to their grope ranks is -0.08:

>>> grope_ranks
array([ 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15])
>>> density_ranks
array([11, 6, 2, 14, 9, 1, 15, 12, 3, 13, 8, 7, 4, 10, 5])
>>> kendalltau(grope_ranks,density_ranks)
KendalltauResult(correlation=-0.085714285714285743,pvalue=0.65604192498673863)

which is quite small and unsurprisingly not statistically significant at any conventional alpha level on a sample size of 15.

It does run in the expected direction, though, I guess, with cities ranked as having worse density (higher density rank) tending very slightly to also have a worse (lower) grope rank.
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0nsen



Joined: 01 Nov 2014
Posts: 256
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:14 pm Reply with quote
#Verso.Sciolto wrote:
0nsen wrote:
If it's such a big problem, why don't they just make it so that trains won't get so crowded

Who are "they"?
"... a self made problem." Whose?

The railroad company? If they don't have enough space for so many people, then don't stuff them all in there. Have more wagons!

Why are you guys so obsessed with women anyway. I'm a guy and I've been groped before. Unpleasant doesn't even begin to describe it, it's a very frustrating, degrading experience. But here's the thing. If you put a bunch of expensive stuff on a table in a big crowd, a nice little sign "Please don't steal me." just won't cut it. That's how it is. Opportunity makes the thief and an open door may tempt a saint.

It's not a problem on the human end of the equation and it's not just "special perverts", it's literally everyone. Everyone.
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