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angelmcazares wrote:

When comparing SAO and Monogatari I am including both the source material and anime content. Am I not allowed to do that?

Then I guess we just disagree? If I'm counting both anime sales, light novel sales, and the vaguer 'reach' and 'influence', I still think SAO is bigger. If we're counting just anime sales, then yes, Monogatari's bigger.

Keep in mind the fact that SAO enjoyed the privilege of airing on Toonami (which ironically boosted its infamy) and not Monogatari as well. So yeah, you can try to rationalize it as a thinly veiled attempt to put down SAO, but the facts don't lie: SAO is a bigger influence than Monogatari would ever be.

Paiprince wrote:

So yeah, you can try to rationalize it as a thinly veiled attempt to put down SAO, but the facts don't lie: SAO is a bigger influence than Monogatari would ever be.

In Western fandom SAO is a bigger deal than Monogatari. But Monogatari is a bigger deal in Japan. And unless you can provide concrete evidence, Japanene companies continue to finance most of the anime being made. It seems clear to me that the franchise that is bigger in Japan has a bigger impact on the anime/manga/LN industry.

And don't take my lack or love for SAO as "hating". I am arguing that Monogatari is a bigger deal for the industry as a whole.

angelmcazares wrote:

Paiprince wrote:

So yeah, you can try to rationalize it as a thinly veiled attempt to put down SAO, but the facts don't lie: SAO is a bigger influence than Monogatari would ever be.

In Western fandom SAO is a bigger deal than Monogatari. But Monogatari is a bigger deal in Japan. And unless you can provide concrete evidence, Japanene companies continue to finance most of the anime being made. It seems clear to me that the franchise that is bigger in Japan has a bigger impact on the anime/manga/LN industry.

And don't take my lack or love for SAO as "hating". I am arguing that Monogatari is a bigger deal for the industry as a whole.

LN Rankings 2016 (From November 2016)
*1.　*1,417,661　Kimi no Na wa.
*2.　*1,174,562　Kono Subarashii Sekai ni Shukufuku wo!
*3.　*1,020,673　Sword Art Online
*4.　*1,007,381　Re:Zero kara Hajimeru Isekai Seikatsu
*5.　**,711,154　Overlord
*6.　**,602,256　Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei
*7.　**,562,187　No Game No Life
*8.　**,450,791　Monogatari Series
*9.　**,449,192　Dungeon ni Deai wo Motomeru no wa Machigatteiru Darou ka
10.　**,435,482　Kokuhaku Yokou Renshuu Series

With the gap from those rankings, it would be utter madness to even consider Japanese companies taking Monogatari all that seriously anymore.

As someone who hates SAO but will defend the fanbase, I'll talk about the things I liked when I watched the first arc but dropped it because of Kirito's cousin falling in love with him, that I just couldn't finish season 1.

1. A-1 Pictures animation was really good.
2. Yuki Kajura's music was fantastic
3. Since I prefer English dubbing, the voice acting was great.

I just couldn't stand Kirito's invincibility, it broke my suspension of disbelief.

Keep it civil folks. People are entitled to their opinions for or against the show. That does not mean you can attack the fans of the show or those who don;t like it. Keep your opinions to the show itself. Thank you.

^If my comment is in any way not civil, feel free to edit it. I'm doing my best, but I do not understand your benchmark for civility at all.

Paiprince wrote:

With the gap from those rankings, it would be utter madness to even consider Japanese companies taking Monogatari all that seriously anymore.

Yeah, for sure. Totally shouldn't take it seriously anymore. They should be ashamed of the fact that it now only sells better than 99% of all Light Novels ever...
For my part, maybe the reason that I'm inclined to consider Monogatari as more influential is because it has had what I would consider a positive influence on the industry and community. It is genuinely well written, is respected by notable authors, has been used in classes as an example of good writing(SAO was also used, but not for its writing), has sold quite a lot in both novel form, and anime(the anime selling exponentially more than SAO), has influenced a slew of genuinely original premises for other novels and anime, and has led to a lot of experimentation among other authors, as it proved that in some ways, experimentation can be incredibly successful. All of those things are good for the industry in my opinion. I don't hate SAO, but I don't think it's popularity has contributed much positively to this industry and community. And most of the trapped in a fantasy world that looks like an MMORPG that aren't very good are directly influenced by it, while the ones that tend to be good seem to take inspiration primarily from elsewhere. Some of the better ones even being clearly inspired by Monogatari as well.

Alternative Ice wrote:

I'd say that the reason for the massive hate the series gets isn't because it's the worst thing evar, but because it had the potential to be really good.

Irredeemable trash like Heart x Hybrid and Hundred we can laugh at and forget about practically ten minutes after watching them.

That's definitely a factor for a lot of people. Understandably so. If you loved what it initially was, and didn't like what it became while so many other people were still eating it up like it was the greatest thing ever, that could certainly get pretty frustrating and lead to anti-hype. I don't do anti-hype, but I can understand where it came from here.

Paiprince wrote:

Oh, and their almost demonic drive to openly condemn anyone who thinks the series isn't hot garbage as having shit taste.

I definitely don't condone that kind of behavior, and plenty of intelligent people like SAO, my best friend included. There are unfortunately a lot of jerks who have jumped on the hate-wagon and done nothing but strip actual criticism against the show of its credibility and created a much worse backlash than was ever necessary. I do think that it's important for people to acknowledge flaws in the show though, and if someone tries to tell me that SAO is actually a 10/10 perfectly written piece of literature, I will struggle a little to take them seriously.

Alternative Ice wrote:

I'd say that the reason for the massive hate the series gets isn't because it's the worst thing evar, but because it had the potential to be really good.

Irredeemable trash like Heart x Hybrid and Hundred we can laugh at and forget about practically ten minutes after watching them.

When a show presents some interesting ideas and you want to like it and let yourself get invested into it, just to be let down is what really grinds people's gears.

I used to hate sao, but now I just enjoy making fun of it.

I think that's it exactly, at least for me. The story's basic premise is sound, and the anime adaptation has fantastic production values, but they feel totally wasted on insufferably-written characters and a narrative that's deeply flawed from the get-go. I don't actively dislike Kawahara, and I'm glad to hear that he's apparently improved a great deal as a writer, but it's still frustrating to think of what could have been with this series.

jr240483 wrote:

instead of the whole cousin nonsense which i have a feeling the author did that on purpose to prevent those haters from comparing fairy dance to oreimo

A can guarantee you that isn't the case. Fairy Dance was written around 2003-2004. Oreimo wasn't even started until 2008.

Well the timing of this article inline with the new film hitting US shores is quite clever!

Let me just say that I am neither a die hard fan of SAO but there are other anime/light novel series that are worst. Personally, my issue has been that the franchise has a strong premise and an entertaining world filled with technology that, if it had a more daring writer, could explore the dangers and exploration of humanity's role with augmented and virtual technology. The reason why I love Log Horizon way more than SAO is how it delves into its world building and exploration of concepts that the reader might not even consider if they were stuck inside a video game...But that's it.

SAO has a strong premise but, the execution has felt weak, unfulfilled, and outright uninventive forcing me to see the poor or cliche writing choices even more blatantly rather than immerse myself into the story. As a whole, I found the anime (won't bother reading it) incredibly average but, since it came out when there really wasn't any other major non Shounen Jump anime, it became a hit with newer anime fans. So, it has its place and I'll check out Ordinal Scale for fun but, I won't expect anything better from this franchise than, "Meh".

Off topic (or maybe not since people are comparing this with the Monogatari franchise...) I am also looking forward to the third Kizumonogatari film and n US theatres. Both are important but, you can't deny the massive mainstream popularity of SAO has where as Monogatari and anything written by Nisioisin is more art house level of important.

Out of curiosity, by whose standards are we using to judge the quality of writing?

ParaChomp wrote:

If you think Sword Art Online is good, then you're wrong. You're very, VERY wrong.

I know right? I've said this before and I'm going to say it again... There's no such thing as objectivity in anime... such a simple concept, but so many people fail to grasp it. It's sad and it's mind-boggling.

Why, then, do many people want to claim that art can be objective or seek objectivity in their art? Well, I can think of several reasons. People are afraid of uncertainty and like structure in their lives. They like to be told what is right and what is wrong. It is easy to have someone tell you what to think and it feels good when your opinions are validated and legitimized when they align with someone else’s.

Pulling out my cynical side, I argue that by establishing objectivity, their own tastes can reign supreme over others. By applying value judgment to taste they can then feel like they are better human beings and look down on others for liking or disliking certain shows. For instance, “otaku-pandering” is just another term that is used to “other” the otaku and make oneself feel superior to them.

Looking at this from the other side, this is why people get so offended and defensive when their favorite show gets criticized. They feel that their tastes are being criticized along with the show. This way of thinking only serves to make people feel inferior for liking shows that are deemed bad, necessitating the use of the term “guilty pleasure”.

Speaking of which, the whole "guilty pleasure" thing is absolutely bullshit. The term asserts that one must feel bad for liking a show, implying that you did something wrong by someone else's standard. Whose standard are you trying to live your life by? Most of the time, it seems that people just use the term so that they won’t be judged by others based on their tastes and to absolve them of their own "guilt". When I like a show, I state loud and proud that I like it. There is absolutely zero shame in it. I am proud of my tastes and you should be proud of yours too.

Sometimes, we get so wrapped up in arguing and worrying about taste and preferences that we forget to simply enjoy anime. And... at the end of the day, I think that that's the only thing that matters.

Alternative Ice wrote:

I'd say that the reason for the massive hate the series gets isn't because it's the worst thing evar, but because it had the potential to be really good.

That's the funny thing about expectations, isn't it? By coming into a show with a preconceived notion of how you want it to turn out, you're going to be disappointed every step of the way if it doesn't follow your set vision for it. Believe me, I know. Honestly, this is one of the reasons I feel we should have everything spoiled for us from the beginning, but I digress. Personally, I always try to enjoy a show for what it is, instead of what I think it should be.

Paiprince wrote:

It's really amazing how this series attracted a hatebase that ranged from actual intelligent criticism to just pure shitflinging, more of the latter. And the hatebase ranged from the cliche anime elitist #64587432095732 to the average Narutards. Oh, and their almost demonic drive to openly condemn anyone who thinks the series isn't hot garbage as having shit taste. Can't forget that. What a lovely bunch. I chalked it up to the 4chan meme culture ripping apart anything and everything, and SAO is just too good to pass up not to. Now look where we are. It's not expected behavior to do so and it's coming from those who enjoy worse anime. Seriously, Narutards should look real hard in the mirror first before jumping on the hate train.

It'll never be everyone's cup of tea, but why should it? You know the old saying: try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one. SAO appeals to a huge demographic of fans and it should keep up that momentum. It shouldn't give the satisfaction of its cancerous haters to "die." Rather, improve since there's a lot of room for it. Kawahara should be proud of what he has accomplished.

I try to view all shows as equal. All of them just serve different purposes. The trick is to not apply value judgement to these purposes. Why is a show that makes you laugh worse than a show that makes you think? Why is a developed character better than a less developed one? It isn't. It's all about subjective opinions. That's why I don't care if other people think SAO is the best. Because, hey, who am I to judge?

Bastille wrote:

If people are trying to argue that SAO is good, as in they enjoyed reading/watching it, then let them have their fun. People are free to find things enjoyable and them liking SAO has no effect on you so why let it bother you? If you saw a bunch of kids playing with a roll of bubble wrap, would you tell them "That's cute, but you know what's really fun? LITERARY ANALYSIS! I'll start by breaking down my favourite Dostoyevsky book...".

While I disagree with the implied value judgement of your analogy, I agree that no one should go about trying to "enlighten" other fans.

Gonna drop this week's ranking just in case :*

*1.　34,220　*,208,452　Sword Art Online Vol.19
*2.　26,052　*,*26,052　Zero no Tsukaima Vol.22
*3.　18,163　*,*18,163　Hachi-nan tte, Sore wa Nai desho! Vol.10
*4.　15,315　*,141,359　Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei Vol.21
*5.　15,308　*,*15,308　Around Forty Kenja no Isekai Seikatsu Nikki Vol.2
*6.　14,670　*,*14,670　Seirei Tsukai no Blade Dance Vol.16
*7.　11,336　*,*11,336　Fairytale Chronicle: Kuukiyomenai Isekai Life Vol.13
*8.　*8,620　*,**8,620　Genjitsu Shugi Yuusha no Oukoku Saikenki Vol.3
*9.　*8,123　*,**8,123　Re:Monster Vol.8.5
10.　*6,277　1,421,169　Kimi no Na wa. (Kadokawa Bunko)

11.　*5,917　*,**5,917　Shinwa Densetsu no Eiyuu no Isekaitan Vol.7
12.　*5,830　*,111,570　Youjo Senki Vol.1
13.　*5,236　*,**5,236　Girls und Panzer Gekijouban Vol.2
14.　*5,152　*,**5,152　Saikyou no Shokugyou wa Yuusha demo Kenja demo Naku Kanteisei (Kari) Rashii desu yo?
15.　*4,398　*,**7,693　Assassins Pride Vol.5
16.　*3,869　*,**3,869　Taikoku Cheat nara Isekai Seifuku mo Rakushou desu yo? Kaedama Koutei ni Natte node Bishoujo mo Yome Houfu desu.
17.　*3,689　*,816,417　Sword Art Online Vol.1
18.　*3,685　*,*20,136　86
19.　*3,585　*,*68,644　Youjo Senki Vol.2
20.　*3,548　*,**3,548　Zettai ni Hatarakitakunai Dungeon Master ga Damin wo Musaboru made Vol.4

relyat08 wrote:

has influenced a slew of genuinely original premises for other novels and anime, and has led to a lot of experimentation among other authors, as it proved that in some ways, experimentation can be incredibly successful. [..] Some of the better ones even being clearly inspired by Monogatari as well.

I can't really think of that many examples -well, any, really -, but then again I'm not that much of an LN reader. Can you provide some? I mean, even if it's more generic or whatever, I'd probably eat up any Monogatari clone or works inspired by it.

Very interesting article. I didn't really know any of this background. It certainly does help me put SAO Aincrad and Fairy Dance's flaws in perspective. I haven't read any of the books, only watched the anime. It's kind of remarkable that despite all the flaws, the franchise has become some massively popular (I like SAO, by the way). Guess that shows the power of a Really Good Idea.

Last edited by Chiibi on Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:44 am; edited 1 time in total

I don't have much to add except that while I enjoy most of the anime, I love the novels a lot more and I love that Reki is quite self-aware. And I love Kirito-kun. (Everybody knows this Anime hyper

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