Forum - View topicGhost in the Shell. Overexposed/Overrated?
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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With the new Ghost in the Shell film coming up I've been thinking about the overall status that the original 1995 film has in anime/film culture. Personally, I was never that impressed by it. I thought it looked great and has a good soundtrack but other than that its never been too engaging to me. I'm a much bigger fan of other films that Mamuro Oshii has directed/written such as the Patlabor films, Jin-Roh and Skycrawlers. Skycrawlers especially to me is kind if like a superior version of GitS. It's dealing with similar themes but also has a dramatic story. That where GitS really falls down for me. It's not dramatically engaging at all. The story is just there to be there but doesn't have any heart. Honestly I can't even remember fully what the plot is despite watching it at least 3 or 4 times. Why does Major shoot that guys head at the beginning? Why did she need to fight that tank at the end? This and other scenes just seem to exist as set pieces rather than being part of a clear, coherent story.
All that being said, does GitS really deserve the status it has? I can understand why it became iconic in 90s anime fandom but does it still warrant the praise it gets all these decades later when other arguably better anime films have been released. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13224 |
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I also remember being quite unimpressed the first time I watched it. "Wait, that's it?" I might have said. Definitely think the hype killed it.
Also doesn't help that I find the Major to be a dull character. The series is supposed to focus on her struggle between her humanity and her machine self, but we almost never see her human side. She's heartless killing machine 99% of the time. She did little to endear me to her. SAC is better but I'm still not a huge fan. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18167 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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That the story doesn't have any heart is a common criticism of all parts of the GitS franchise, not just the movie. It's just not a very personable storyline in any form, and that leaves some viewers cold. They made some effort to make Motoko a bit more human in the Arise series, but it's only a marginal improvement.
And, frankly, I don't have a problem with that or think that something has to have heart to be entertaining. What makes the essence of a person, where the dividing line is between human and not-human, and how advanced tech can be abused (and how those abuses can be countered) are the franchise's themes, and they are fascinating ones to consider. It's definitely part of the franchise's draw. You also have to remember that the movie was - and really still is - the definitive cyberpunk work in anime. It quantifies the essence of what cyberpunk is better than anything I've seen in anime. I'd even question whether or not there's been a better work of its type released since then; if you think there has then name it. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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This conflict is focused on Motoko, but again it loses something since she's not particularly likable as a human. She's a badass, sure, but outside of that she's your distant broody type. Bato and Togusa are at least around to provide some likable characters. So yeah, if you want to explore what makes some one human, having heart is absolutely essential. |
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Cam0
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I've never seen the movie. I've always felt like that if I wanted to watch GitS then I'd rather watch Stand Alone Complex. And I've actually seen some of it, like maybe 6ish episodes? And I thought that it was pretty good looking anime with a very interesting world but the characters killed it for me. I found the characters so boring, almost robot-like that I quickly lost interest in the show. I'd assume that the movie has similar issue.
I've wanted to go back and watch the rest of SAC because the world really seems very interesting but I've never gotten into the mood to do so. I'll watch it... someday, probably. |
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Woomy
 Posts: 110 |
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To be fair, my reading of the original film was that the disconnect Motoko has with everyone else, including the audience, was intentional. It's actually pretty meticulously crafted with her. She's like a living doll. If you notice, for example, the animators even purposely don't have her blink very often, if at all if I remember correctly. Not out of laziness, but to further represent this. I like this angle in the film as you can get a sense of Kusanagi's dilemma. She's incredibly unclear about her existence. The film even implies there's a possibility she was never human at all. That kind of visual storytelling is probably what I praise most about the film. But bringing this back to the topic at hand, I actually still don't think GiTS is some definitive work of cyberpunk fiction. It's not the first one in this genre to tackle these themes, and quite frankly others works did do it a little better. That's not to say GiTS is bad by any means. It still is a pretty influential film, but I don't think it's THE golden standard in this genre. It wouldn't even exist without the others that inspired it, and those still had more of a handle on it. But I'm talking mainly about the film here, which is also the only thing in this franchise I do still enjoy the most. I don't think any of the later adaptations like S.A.C. and Arise especially, ever were on the same level as the 95 film. Yes, I know it's not completely faithful to the manga series it's based on, but Oshii's vision for the franchise hit. Is GiTS overrated? Kind of. I'd probably point to other things in cyberpunk to check out before getting to GiTS. But it did garner its legacy for a reason. |
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louis6578
 Posts: 1860 |
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Yeah... while I get the philosophical stuff, the fact that I don't have a connection to any of the characters is a huge problem. Just because a show is dark or serious doesn't mean I shouldn't have to care about the people in it. Psycho Pass, Fate/Zero, Shiki, and tons of other gritty, intelligent shows have gotten me invested in the people they were about while also keeping their focus more on the lore and sci-fi/fantasy aspects and rules rather than the characters themselves. Hell, I really can't rewatch Ghost in the Shell and enjoy it at all. I feel bad.
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18167 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Oh, it's an interesting series which deals with some interesting topics, to be sure. However, if you struggled to get through the first six episodes then it'll probably be a waste of your effort to watch any more. Most of both seasons of the series are like that. Also, I think some people may be misinterpreting what I mean by "definitive cyberpunk work." I am not referring to its themes here, which, yes, you can see explored elsewhere. I'm referring to the look, the feel, and the way technology is used. In particular, I'm referring to the way you have technologically-based connectivity at a hyper-advanced level and how that, ironically, only muddles identity rather than defining it, as well as how that goes hand-in-hand with a gritty urban environment. To put it another way: "Classic cyberpunk characters are marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body." Can't think of any other anime title which fits that description better than GitS does. Also - perhaps somewhat like Akira - I feel this is a case where the impact of the movie loses a bit over time. It's lost its mind-blowing edge over the years. (By a similar token, I imagine that people who see the original Blade Runner for the first time these days wouldn't fully appreciate the impact it had, either.) |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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I understand that but Skycrawlers potentially could have had the same issue, but Oshii found a way to give the story some heart while still questioning the nature of humanness. In that film despite the non-human nature of some of the characters they are still made sympathetic through the emotional attachments that the more human characters have towards them. In GitS by contrast Motoko/Major is getting ripped to shreds and it's not a big deal. There's no actual suffering.
Sure I understand why it was iconic in the 90s, but cultural prominence doesn’t equate to quality necessarily. In the run up to this new film, I’m seeing people describing the ’95 version as one of the best films ever made. Seriously? As I said, I don’t even think its Oshii’s best film. If you want to say it has some of the best animation of any film, then you might have an argument, but without that specific criteria this is way too hyperbolic. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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I understand part of it is intentional, but the way she's always been portrayed it's like there's no actual dilemma: She considers herself a machine and always acts like one. I certainly don't remember any scenes where she's clearly tempted to do something 'human' only to deny herself because she thinks she's just 'a machine.' Only time that stands out in my mind where she actually felt like a person with real emotions was whenever Kuze was involved. |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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Looking at some of the early reviews of GitS (2017), a common complaint I'm seeing is that the characters aren't relatable or sympathetic "unlike in the original". Huh?
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23740 |
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Yeah, I'd say GitS the movie and the franchise in general are over-rated. However, GitS is also one of the few anime films I've seen multiple times, including being in the middle of watching GitS 2.0 because I've never seen that version before. I get why people find Major Kusanagi cold and unrelatable, but I've always found her kind of intriguing. I also dig the GitS franchise for doing something that is rarely attempted any more: hard SF.
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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Haha. Well, one of the few reviewers I care about, a huge GitS fan, admits that the live action film actually handles the Major better. Which means I'm going to see it. Also relevant video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPV7faHaODY |
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Arkthelad
Posts: 108 |
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Yeah I saw that Stuckman vid already. Don't know whether to trust his opinion but at least he sounds like he actually has a clear memory of the original when he compares it with the new one. The other reviewers I referred to sound like they probably watched it just once 15 years ago, but are still "huge fans". I feel like it's one of those films that people like because it's a "classic", rather than it being a classic because people like it. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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He did review the original a few weeks ago, so yeah.
I do agree that GitS is one of those films that benefits greatly from nostalgia goggles. It came out at a time when anime was still a relatively new thing over here and American cartoons were rarely so mature and [seemingly] deep. So it blew a lot of minds back in the day and that overwhelming positive regard sticks in people's minds and colour their opinions years later. |
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