Forum - View topic
Berserk: Why Griffith is the Perfect Villain


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
NeverConvex



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 317
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:08 pm Reply with quote
Souther wrote:
NeverConvex wrote:


This is a pretty problematic interpretation from the modern perspective on causality. It is fundamentally a thing that cannot be "manipulated," as that only moves the chain of "Who caused what?" further backward, and replaces one cause with another.


If you have a goal in mind, an incredible amount of knowledge and the supernatural means to shape events on a grand scale in order to achieve your goal, it's no problem at all. But to give you the short answer on this, check out a summary of chapter/episode 83. It was removed by the author, but you'll understand.

EDIT: maybe a better way of describing it would be to say evil forces create events in Berserk through cause and effect.


This would require me to be willing to read the manga, which I'm not. Razz

Your edited interpretation is perfectly consistent with modern scientific naturalism but a lot less fun. I like trying to make sense of there existing a third way distinct from causality and randomness!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1297
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:45 pm Reply with quote
JacobC wrote:
Okay, the problem we're running into here is with the piece's title, so we're changing it.


I gotta give the fine people at ANN some credit for admitting their mistakes with grace instead of silently correcting them and sweeping them under the rug. ANN>The Walking Dead staff.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
quariki



Joined: 19 Apr 2017
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:38 pm Reply with quote
I liked the article quite a bit, so good job to Anne for that. One of the best things in the 90's anime was actually the torture scene in my opinion, or, well, when they find him after the torture. It's a real moment that is both touching and scary/dark when Griffith, with any strength he has left remaining goes to choke Guts, and as Guts hugs him he lets his hands go with a surprised expression. I'm not sure if it's in the manga as I personally haven't read the Golden Age arc area of it (given that I had an anime adaption of it to watch) but if anyone could confirm if that scene was in there as well it would be appreciated.

Speaking of which, I'm okay with the 2017 adaptation so far. I like to treat the "modern berserk" a bit nicer, to the point where I'm basically an apologist for it.

On the subject of the title, I can understand why one would want to change it, but personally don't like the decision simply because it's basically my #1 meme. I can't help but let out a little chuckle when I see it, and even moreso when out-of-the-loop people comment on it.

But again, from a reputation perspective it is for the better.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeverConvex



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 317
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:46 pm Reply with quote
quariki wrote:
Speaking of which, I'm okay with the 2017 adaptation so far. I like to treat the "modern berserk" a bit nicer, to the point where I'm basically an apologist for it.


Totally on board for this. 2017 Berserk is surprisingly fun in spite of its obvious flaws.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Connor Dino



Joined: 20 Dec 2010
Posts: 8
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:19 pm Reply with quote
If the only thing you are going to comment now (after they fixed the title) is how offended you were, how impolite it was, and how you expect better...kindly stop. They admitted their mistake and apologized. Not moving on and making comments simply on that topic (ignoring the article itself) seems self-indulgent...and it takes away just as much from this amazing article as the original title did. Can we all just move on and stop over-reaching about what a bad/stupid joke means?

On a different and more on topic note: not only is this piece well written, but it has shed a light on parts of the Berserk series that I love discussing. Griffith is an incredibly complex character and despite how monstrous he is (maybe in spite of it) I find him a fascinating character to talk about. For example:

Was he purely evil from the start? Was he tricked and told what he needed to hear at that exact moment? If the eclipse happened right when we met Griffith during the start of the Golden Age Arc...would he have sacrificed the Band of the Hawk? Or would he have used his own power to achieve his dream and told the god-hand to go F-themsleves? Was it JUST the torture that brought him to the point of madness and evil during the eclipse? Or did he always have these qualities?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
apapazukamori



Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 4
Location: Washington, DC
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:30 pm Reply with quote
I really liked this article, so thanks for the discussion!

I am working my way through the manga, and have only seen the movies (not the 1997 anime) but the thing that always fascinates me about pre-Eclipse Griffith was just how much his decision was that Moral Event Horizon. He lost his dream, he lost his band (they were talking about going off and following Guts), he lost Guts and Casca (in his mind) to their relationship. He lost his mobility, his voice, and even if he wants to kill himself, he can't. So at that moment of ultimate despair, he chose reclaiming a tenth of that to all the people he ever cared about. And it really is so human. I love it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nagsura



Joined: 28 Aug 2016
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:41 am Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
Thank you for changing the click bait title. If the headline isn't the main idea of the piece, don't use it. Picking a joke is well and good, but not when it's a horribly distasteful joke on one of the most vile rape scenes in all of manga. Playing for shock value by using a click-bait title on something as controversial as rape is cheap, and not something that should be made light of.

Some people here saying I'm overrating are a big part of what is wrong with rape culture, and if a site decides to suddenly start treating it lightly, going so far even as to make a joke out of it, it's going to lose a lot of long time readers. I'm not here for 4chan memes and mentality.


Dear lord, in the name of all that is good take a chill pill. How many more posts need to point out the article isn't justifying a fictional character's actions and that a joke is just a joke, even if "bad" according to your own tastes?

No one here is making fun of or belitting rape in any way,shape or form You're bringing it into the table's discussion, even more so byseemingly trying to make it the main point of conversation around here, when it clearly isn't.

There's clearly more to Griffith's depth as a character beyond him raping Casca and the Eclipse also consists of more than just that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Calsolum



Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 511
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:43 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Originally this article was called "Griffith Did Nothing Wrong", and it was a tongue-in-cheek clickbait title that was a bad choice; not only did it misrepresent the content of this piece, but it angered a bunch of people, justifiably so.
while I don't disagree it was clickbait I don't think it was that big a deal since the article itself is very interesting. oh well.

Quote:
it turns out Griffith was the dependent one between them.

while this isn't wrong I think it's important to note that after meeting Guts Griffith became dependent upon him. Had Griffith never met or laid eyes on Guts he'd probably take twice as long to achieve his goals and never had that fight that led to his imprisonment. I'm sure the Godhand would've found another way to screw him over though, probably using caska.

Quote:
Griffith is sane when his first instinct is to strangle Guts upon being rescued, giving up only when Guts begins to cry.

huh, i totally missed that, although in my defense I was a stupid teenager back then who wasn't that good at reading between the lines.

Quote:
in medias res
ha I knew what this word means and didn't need to click this wikipedia link, thank you persona 5 reviews(appreciate the other wikipedia links tho)

Quote:
So Berserk gives us the Count, a disgusting excuse for a former human being, who makes the choice to go to hell instead of sacrificing what he loves the most at a crucial juncture, erasing any doubt about Griffith's culpability in the Eclipse

... ... huh
I did not notice that at all.
That makes a lot of sense.
Again i blame it on youth.

Regarding the entire article, I think it was really well done and Griffith really is a(not the) perfect villain. I hear friends tell me that Dio is another great villain, perhaps someone can write up something on him. Wait but then I wouldn't be able to read it cause it would be filed with spoilers.

Anyway, I'd love to see someone argue that Griffith is possibly the best "leader" that the world of berserk has.
Yes, he has done a lot of unforgivable things including murder, rape, etc.
But if we look solely at the results he's accomplished a lot. Far more that Guts could ever have done in his lifetime. Or anyone else for that matter. I mean he managed to get the apostles and humans to fight side by side and create a literal utopia. Yes, it's metaphorically(heck maybe even physically idk it just sorta materialized if I remember correctly) built on the corpses and sacrifices of his comrades and plenty more will probably have to die to maintain it. But to the ignorant masses, he's a benevolent god, an evil god to us since we're observing things that no one in the story is privy to (cept that 'actual god' in the chapter that was removed for exposing too much of the plot).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SilverTalon01



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 1709
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:10 am Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
Thank you for changing the click bait title. If the headline isn't the main idea of the piece, don't use it. Picking a joke is well and good, but not when it's a horribly distasteful joke on one of the most vile rape scenes in all of manga. Playing for shock value by using a click-bait title on something as controversial as rape is cheap, and not something that should be made light of.


But Anne did explain immediately what was meant by that title, and that was the main idea of the piece.

I do think the new title is better because I don't think an article title that needs to be explained is a great title, but if you actually read the article, she very clearly is not giving Griffith an out for any of his actions.


Last edited by SilverTalon01 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:18 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
v1cious



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 5638
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:12 am Reply with quote
Sheesh, are people so sensitive that you can't even make a joke anymore? Really?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
littlegreenwolf



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 4740
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:16 am Reply with quote
Nagsura wrote:

Dear lord, in the name of all that is good take a chill pill. How many more posts need to point out the article isn't justifying a fictional character's actions and that a joke is just a joke, even if "bad" according to your own tastes?

No one here is making fun of or belitting rape in any way,shape or form You're bringing it into the table's discussion, even more so byseemingly trying to make it the main point of conversation around here, when it clearly isn't.

There's clearly more to Griffith's depth as a character beyond him raping Casca and the Eclipse also consists of more than just that.


The issue clearly went over your head if you made a post just to try and admonisg me after thanking ANN for the change. They've obviously learned from the misstep, but if you need further links as to help YOU understand why this was such and issue to some I'd be happy to provide you with some.

But like you said continuing to address posts concerning this issue will take things off topic, so if you still don't understand after reading that link, Google more into the issue.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail My Anime My Manga
SilverTalon01



Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 1709
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:19 am Reply with quote
The original title isn't even that great of click bait. It is only really click bait to the subset of people who not only know the ending of the Golden Age arc but also don't know about the most popular meme for the series. If you knew neither, then you wouldn't know about the rape. If you knew both, the article was very clearly going to go exactly where it did which isn't click bait.

Griffith is also more than just that one act. It is pretty shallow to pretend otherwise and completely misses why he is a compelling character.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Calsolum



Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 511
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:35 am Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
Nagsura wrote:

Dear lord, in the name of all that is good take a chill pill. How many more posts need to point out the article isn't justifying a fictional character's actions and that a joke is just a joke, even if "bad" according to your own tastes?

No one here is making fun of or belitting rape in any way,shape or form You're bringing it into the table's discussion, even more so byseemingly trying to make it the main point of conversation around here, when it clearly isn't.

There's clearly more to Griffith's depth as a character beyond him raping Casca and the Eclipse also consists of more than just that.


The issue clearly went over your head if you made a post just to try and admonisg me after thanking ANN for the change. They've obviously learned from the misstep, but if you need further links as to help YOU understand why this was such and issue to some I'd be happy to provide you with some.

But like you said continuing to address posts concerning this issue will take things off topic, so if you still don't understand after reading that link, Google more into the issue.


I understand that rape jokes are very offensive and personally I hate them as well.
but that's also exactly why I didn't think it was a bad title because the first thing I thought of wasn't Griffith raping Caska but all of Griffith's actions as a whole.
I don't mean to sound insensitive but I think you're way too focused on that aspect of Griffith's character. To be clear "Griffith did nothing wrong" is NOT a Rape Joke(because raping caska was not the only wrong thing he did) I'm sure it wasn't meant to be intentional or otherwise.

Regardless I apologize for going off topic but I felt this had to be made clear. If you'd or anyone else would like to discuss this further feel free to PM me as I don't want to derail the discussion any further.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AkaRed



Joined: 13 Jan 2016
Posts: 204
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:11 am Reply with quote
The article is not here for make you love Griffith but for realise why he is the Perfect Manga/Anime vilain.

This article is all about to why Griffith is superior to the like of Freezer, Dio Brando or Aizen, this article show us that Griffith is the pinacle of vilainy the utmost perfection and that any vilain in Manga/Anime history need to kneel before his might and perfect sight !

Griffith / Femto > All vilain in Manga/Anime

And that's why I would love when I will Guts destroy him with his Dragonslayer that will be a bliss of pleasure to read/watch !
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Souther



Joined: 22 Feb 2015
Posts: 542
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:18 am Reply with quote
quariki wrote:
It's a real moment that is both touching and scary/dark when Griffith, with any strength he has left remaining goes to choke Guts, and as Guts hugs him he lets his hands go with a surprised expression. I'm not sure if it's in the manga as I personally haven't read the Golden Age arc area of it (given that I had an anime adaption of it to watch) but if anyone could confirm if that scene was in there as well it would be appreciated.


That scene's in the manga. The 1997 anime's mostly faithful to the manga.


Connor Dino wrote:

Was he purely evil from the start? Was he tricked and told what he needed to hear at that exact moment? If the eclipse happened right when we met Griffith during the start of the Golden Age Arc...would he have sacrificed the Band of the Hawk? Or would he have used his own power to achieve his dream and told the god-hand to go F-themsleves? Was it JUST the torture that brought him to the point of madness and evil during the eclipse? Or did he always have these qualities?


The God Hand themselves say this during the Eclipse; Griffith was chosen because he had the qualities to become one of them. His ambition would serve their goals greatly and they were banking on qualities like his personality, his background, etc. to make him likely want to sacrifice. Of course, Griffith most likely wouldn't have made the choice during the start of the Golden Age. That's why circumstances were orchestrated so he'd be completely broken down. Then the God Hand fed him a bunch of rationalisations that they knew would feed into his ambition and personality in order to get him to sacrifice. People who make the sacrifice don't necessarily have to be evil to start off with (as seen with chars like Rosine, the Count, and even Griffith), but they have to possess the qualities and desires that would make them want to turn to evil and be useful as demons.

To sum it up; the Behelit is sent to people with backgrounds, qualities and desires that are conducive for creating and making a suitable God Hand/Apostle. Then circumstances are arranged to break the person and make them want to sacrifice. Once they do, they turn evil and their desires and powers can be used to serve an (evil) agenda, which they're more than happy to do because they're just doing what they want and acting out on their desires.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group