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Answerman - Why Are Common English Loanwords Mistranslated So Often?

These complaints about translation was (and is) always a huge pet peeve of mine about the anime community. For the longest time it seemed like things had to be completely literal or the translation was considered crap.

"I CLEARLY heard that character say 'mansion', and that's how they translated it in the fansub, [official translation] says 'apartment' so obvs the entire translation is 100% wrong"
Never mind the nuances that come with loan words, much less completely mishearing.

But even worse was the "the first translation I saw MUST be the correct one" fallacy. Like, a nobody in their basement with a Japanese dictionary knows better than a paid professional (And sometimes they do! I'm even one of them! Buuuut when you have two translations that differ widly in multiple areas, my money is usually on the professional translation being more correct.) It was especially bad with speedsubs vs official release, since many people didn't even know that their fansubs were a rush job.

In your example of Kuroko calling Mikoto "sissy" instead of "onee-sama", that's not a loan word, it's just a translation, and it gets criticism because it's not a very good one. I have never in my life witnessed anyone call someone "sissy" in that way; it's just not a way people talk in English. There is no real consensus on what is an appropriate way to translate that, there's just no suitable English equivalent that gets used the way "onee-sama" does. Some advocate just sticking with "onee-sama", others advocate something like "big sis" to more-or-less convey the meaning even if it sounds a bit awkward in English. Also worth noting that this example isn't a sub/dub thing; it's a Funimation translation thing since they use "sissy" in their subtitles too.

I have never in my life witnessed anyone call someone "sissy" in that way

"Sissy" is a far more accurate representation of Kuroko's use of "Onee-sama" in tone than "Big Sis", which completely misunderstands Kuroko's character and both why and how she uses "Onee-sama". The literal meaning of sister is the least important part.

It's a posh term not used in modern common discourse between societal "equals", which reflects a fondness and respect to an elder sister with an old-fashioned air... rather like "Onee-sama" as Kuroko uses it.

If you want a one-to-one expression that includes the meaning "sister", Funimation's choice is clearly the superior one. A better option in my opinion would be to write a new pet expression for Kuroko to use which venerates her much-adored friend and use that instead.

As for "that use of the word [being] largely unknown in modern times"... well, firstly, it's not "that use of the word". The term of address for an elder sister and the pejorative term are actually different words, homophones (and homographs). And secondly: again, what does it matter? Lack of modern use does not somehow invalidate any meaning it carries and it's obvious from context what it does mean. Plus you're reading it more than just the once, so you'll remember it the second time. So the best representation of a Japanese term of address is a term which is more obscure in English than that term is in Japanese – that's really not a big deal and no reason to use a far less accurate expression. You may as well pick literally any other term of address in English if that's your sole criterion. How about "Sistah", "Mummy" or "Bro"? Sure, they're all obviously wrong, but they're more commonly recognised nowadays, which is the only thing that matters, right?

This is even assuming it is indeed "unknown in modern times" as you say. I sure knew it: I identified it immediately as a term I'd heard in period dramas and novels about rich British families. That association is pretty similar to what a Japanese reader would have connecting it to traditional or period literature about nobility, even if neither they nor anyone they know would use it in a regular real-life situation.

As for "that use of the word [being] largely unknown in modern times"... well, firstly, it's not "that use of the word". The term of address for an elder sister and the pejorative term are actually different words, homophones (and homographs).

Lack of modern use does not somehow invalidate any meaning it carries and it's obvious from context what it does mean.

This is even assuming it is indeed "unknown in modern times" as you say. I sure knew it: I identified it immediately as a term I'd heard in period dramas and novels about rich British families. That association is pretty similar to what a Japanese reader would have connecting it to traditional or period literature about nobility, even if neither they nor anyone they know would use it in a regular real-life situation.

EDIT: I don't know if this has actually been suggested or used in a licensed or fan release, but while chopping onions for dinner it's occurred to me that "Sister dearest" would probably work quite well, checking most or all of the boxes for tone, character, respectfulness (and meaning "sister") without being as obscure or requiring getting used to. "Mikoto dearest" or something would work well as well, instead of or alongside. As I mentioned earlier, the literal reference to sisterhood is not as important to the meaning conveyed, so I still think making up a new pet expression would be best.

That's splitting the hair really goddamned thin.

On the contrary, if it doesn't see modern use, it really isn't that much good in a translation

And sure accuracy matters, but only to a certain extent; between a word that's fallen from usage that's absolutely accurate and one that's in common usage but is only mostly accurate, the latter is a better choice.

I dunno, I'd hardly call use in period dramas and novels about rich British families evidence of common modern usage.

At the very least, I've seen "onee-sama" used far more commonly in anime and manga than I have "sissy" at all. (And that's including the pejorative use.) I expect its use in anime and manga is much greater than its use in real life, but still way more familiar to the average Japanese speaker than "sissy" is to the average English speaker.

It's better than "sissy", that's for sure. Still doesn't quite sound right to me, but it's better than most alternatives. ... "Mikoto-onee-sama" to "Mikoto dearest" would be acceptable, "Onee-sama" to "Mikoto dearest" wouldn't.

I don't like adding use of a character's name where it wasn't

Why would a Japanese character be talking in a system of measurement they don't use? It doesn't bother me, nor should it bother any reasonable person, to hear terms in a convention they don't use. That's how the world works: different people use different conventions. If I were in your position, I would feel I was being treated like an idiot by the licensors.

I think you are being a bit extreme here. No the Japanese character is not talking about a system of measurement they don't use. They are also not speaking English. The whole point of the subtitles (or dub) is to make the show understandable to the person watching. To me the conversion to US standard measurement is simply part of the translation. I understand that it bothers you because you are used to using metric measurement. I'm not so the conversion is transparent to me.

Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:

In your example of Kuroko calling Mikoto "sissy" instead of "onee-sama", that's not a loan word, it's just a translation, and it gets criticism because it's not a very good one. I have never in my life witnessed anyone call someone "sissy" in that way; it's just not a way people talk in English. There is no real consensus on what is an appropriate way to translate that, there's just no suitable English equivalent that gets used the way "onee-sama" does. Some advocate just sticking with "onee-sama", others advocate something like "big sis" to more-or-less convey the meaning even if it sounds a bit awkward in English. Also worth noting that this example isn't a sub/dub thing; it's a Funimation translation thing since they use "sissy" in their subtitles too.

I remember those moments of Railgun...Hearing "sissy" in the English version felt pretty awkward, even if that term was normal. "Onee-sama" or "Big Sis" would have sounded much better.[/b]