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How Oreimo Made Little Sisters a Big Deal


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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8360
Location: IL
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:30 pm Reply with quote
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
The little sister doesn't have to be directly subservient- they can even be defiant and sassy. But at the end of the day, they are destined to have no ambitions or goals outside of being a doting housewife to their "oniichan".

If I replace "little sister" with "girlfriend" then do you see any difference? What you are describing is the Yamato Nadeshiko ideal. The issue is, it doesn't apply to little sisters. It applies to the perfect girlfriend or wife. Little sister moe is not Yamato Nadeshiko. That's why the most popular little sister characters are those that are brash, rude, and treat their brothers like servants.
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encrypted12345



Joined: 25 Jan 2012
Posts: 715
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:34 pm Reply with quote
Hoppy800 wrote:
encrypted12345 wrote:
Ah, a bit off topic but I remember one guy who commissioned a little sister H-manga and dedicated it to his little sister (with the addendum of saying that he hopes that she never finds out). Not that I think it's a particularly common fetish in Japan, but there's nothing wrong with letting guys vent their immoral desires through fictional means.

There are also cases where a guy can know what a little sister is like realistically, but still adore the otaku ideal of a little sister nonetheless. It's like the people who have both a wife and a waifu, or being raised by a decent father but still wishing your dad was Goku.


There's also people who read incestuous and non-incestuous little sister manga who have a horrible little sister that's evil, annoying, and/or doesn't give a care about them, they want a caring sister and not one that acts like a gremlin or the spawn of Satan.


I feel sorry for anyone whose little sister is that bad. Mine is only the spawn of Mammon. She always asks me for money to buy clothing or some inane thing related to some fad that she's in. I wish my little sister had a job like... Sagiri. Truly, she is the perfect imouto.
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 1091
Location: LA, Baby!
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:38 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
The little sister doesn't have to be directly subservient- they can even be defiant and sassy. But at the end of the day, they are destined to have no ambitions or goals outside of being a doting housewife to their "oniichan".

If I replace "little sister" with "girlfriend" then do you see any difference? What you are describing is the Yamato Nadeshiko ideal. The issue is, it doesn't apply to little sisters. It applies to the perfect girlfriend or wife. Little sister moe is not Yamato Nadeshiko. That's why the most popular little sister characters are those that are brash, rude, and treat their brothers like servants.


Look, I don't really know what you want anymore. All I'm doing here is trying to explain my theory on why little sisters are popular, and I've been getting mostly grief. I'm doing my best, and I'm sure you don't mean any ill will. But frankly, I'm getting tired. I don't feel well today, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to have a complete psychotic breakdown because this day has been very exhausting for me and none of you are helping. I'm...I'm done. I can't deal with this.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8360
Location: IL
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:45 pm Reply with quote
You were for the most part correct. Little sisters are popular with otaku because in Japanese culture, inherently by age, the little sister is socially inferior to the older brother. The issue is that you used the root word dominate. That implies action taken by the brother to subjugate the little sister. That does not happen. No domination occurs. That's all I was trying to point out. Sorry for any stress or anything like that.
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AksaraKishou



Joined: 16 May 2015
Posts: 1410
Location: End of the World
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:49 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
You were for the most part correct. Little sisters are popular with otaku because in Japanese culture, inherently by age, the little sister is socially inferior to the older brother. The issue is that you used the root word dominate. That implies action taken by the brother to subjugate the little sister. That does not happen. No domination occurs. That's all I was trying to point out. Sorry for any stress or anything like that.


Domination does sometimes happen, but it's 9/10 times from the little sister towards her brother. Tho this kinda stems from the fact that most MC's are either indecisive beta's or can't really feel those kinds of things for them like Mahouka's Tatsuya.
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harminia



Joined: 24 Aug 2015
Posts: 1987
Location: australia
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:52 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
The loosening of restrictions to allow sex between non-blood-related siblings ushered in a flood of little sister-themed titles.

Just makes me think a bunch of writers were sitting on their "brother bangs his step sister" stories waiting for the chance to bring them to the world.

Quote:
The first volume tells a simple, heartwarming story about siblings learning to reconnect.


I wish it'd stayed that way (so I wouldn't have to feel like a bad person when I say I enjoy what I've seen of the series). Kyousuke was such a good brother (I've only seen like 5 episodes though), he made me happy.


Quote:
“But if I didn't have to write under the name of Tsukasa Fushimi,” he adds, “I'd like to write a horror story.”

I hope he does do that, one day.

Quote:
“I might make the characters go to another world and have adventures there. It'd be one of those isekai stories.”

But I hope he doesn't do that.
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 1091
Location: LA, Baby!
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 6:07 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
You were for the most part correct. Little sisters are popular with otaku because in Japanese culture, inherently by age, the little sister is socially inferior to the older brother. The issue is that you used the root word dominate. That implies action taken by the brother to subjugate the little sister. That does not happen. No domination occurs. That's all I was trying to point out. Sorry for any stress or anything like that.


I was never talking about domination from an in-story perspective. I was talking about domination from a meta-perspective; that of the audience rather than the character. Whether or not the main character is dominating the little sister doesn't matter. It's that the reader indulges in a fantasy of having a woman who's goal in life is to be the earth to her older brother's sun. Notably, compared to other fetishes like the childhood friend and maid, the little sister is the archetype who, on average, has the least amount of life outside of the self-insert.
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harminia



Joined: 24 Aug 2015
Posts: 1987
Location: australia
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 6:15 pm Reply with quote
The conversation happening here is giving me flashbacks of the conversation on the Answerman column a while back.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: Austin, TX
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 6:31 pm Reply with quote
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
I was never talking about domination from an in-story perspective. I was talking about domination from a meta-perspective; that of the audience rather than the character. Whether or not the main character is dominating the little sister doesn't matter. It's that the reader indulges in a fantasy of having a woman who's goal in life is to be the earth to her older brother's sun. Notably, compared to other fetishes like the childhood friend and maid, the little sister is the archetype who, on average, has the least amount of life outside of the self-insert.

I want to start by apologizing if the responses have made you feel "attacked". That said, since Oreimo is the inspiration of the piece and Eromanga is the "current" item. I want to point out that in BOTH pieces, the "little sister" is generally seen as more successful/appealing than the MC. Kirino of Oreimo was a model, published author, high-level athlete and popular student. While her brother builds a harem in the show, that is specific to the show setting and he remains generally not that well received away from the girls. (that's more an issue with "harem shows" rather than the little sister genre) Also, one reason many don't LIKE Kirino is because she REMAINS abrasive and demanding and never really changes for her "onii-san". The whole show is kind of ABOUT her trying to turn him into the man she wants him to be.

I think that's more the "root" of the concept. Generally "little sister" otaku feel that they haven't "already lost" to the younger set. Children admire their elders even if they're "failures" in life because they don't know about certain adult responsibilities and expectations yet. A guy could be a complete otaku, shut-in, but an 8-year-old may still think he's cool because he knows all the Pokemon, whereas a 20-year-old will think he's disgusting because he doesn't have a job.
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 1091
Location: LA, Baby!
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 6:44 pm Reply with quote
HeeroTX wrote:
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
I was never talking about domination from an in-story perspective. I was talking about domination from a meta-perspective; that of the audience rather than the character. Whether or not the main character is dominating the little sister doesn't matter. It's that the reader indulges in a fantasy of having a woman who's goal in life is to be the earth to her older brother's sun. Notably, compared to other fetishes like the childhood friend and maid, the little sister is the archetype who, on average, has the least amount of life outside of the self-insert.

I want to start by apologizing if the responses have made you feel "attacked". That said, since Oreimo is the inspiration of the piece and Eromanga is the "current" item. I want to point out that in BOTH pieces, the "little sister" is generally seen as more successful/appealing than the MC. Kirino of Oreimo was a model, published author, high-level athlete and popular student. While her brother builds a harem in the show, that is specific to the show setting and he remains generally not that well received away from the girls. (that's more an issue with "harem shows" rather than the little sister genre) Also, one reason many don't LIKE Kirino is because she REMAINS abrasive and demanding and never really changes for her "onii-san". The whole show is kind of ABOUT her trying to turn him into the man she wants him to be.

I think that's more the "root" of the concept. Generally "little sister" otaku feel that they haven't "already lost" to the younger set. Children admire their elders even if they're "failures" in life because they don't know about certain adult responsibilities and expectations yet. A guy could be a complete otaku, shut-in, but an 8-year-old may still think he's cool because he knows all the Pokemon, whereas a 20-year-old will think he's disgusting because he doesn't have a job.


True that. I have two friends on here who've seen OreImo, and they HATE Kirino. Like, HAAAAAATE her.

Now that I think about, I think I have a better understanding from you guys about where the Kirino type originates from. I think these men who write little sisters are aware that they can be really mean and awful via their friends who do have little sisters. However, having no experience living under their roof and having been fed messages about women existing to take care of them, they write them as secretly caring and desiring to get into the pants of their older brother. And yeah, they're good at everything, and if they're good at everything, they must be good at sex too. Those muscles are great for some R-rated action, I do hear.
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mangamuscle



Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 2658
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 8:19 pm Reply with quote
Akane the Catgirl wrote:
Those muscles are great for some R-rated action, I do hear.


Too bad they never drew in the anime any muscle on Kirino in any sequence (not even when she was exerting to the max running). Uhh, don't mind me, wrong fetish.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1857
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 8:57 pm Reply with quote
I'd like to point out, I hate Kirino, but otherwise like the show. She's really not the appeal, as much as the author deludes himself in the later part.
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zrnzle500



Joined: 04 Oct 2014
Posts: 3767
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 11:57 pm Reply with quote
To me, the root of the concept is proximity and knowledge, not unlike the childhood friend. Many otaku aren't terribly social. They might not have many female acquaintances and even if they did might not know how to convince one to try and get to know them better and date them. But a sister (or childhood friend) is right there and knows you well, or at least better than some random stranger you might meet. That already gets the finding someone amenable to them part and the getting to know them part out of the way, so they are basically on third base on the way to a relationship, they might believe. It is a fantasy of an easier way to get into a relationship, for those who haven't had much if any success in that realm. Its taboo nature is certainly a factor too and to some degree there may be other factors that are different for different people.
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HeeroTX



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: Austin, TX
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 12:05 am Reply with quote
zrnzle500 wrote:
To me, the root of the concept is proximity and knowledge, not unlike the childhood friend. Many otaku aren't terribly social. They might not have many female acquaintances and even if they did might not know how to convince one to try and get to know them better and date them. But a sister (or childhood friend) is right there and knows you well, or at least better than some random stranger you might meet.

As a fan of the childhood friend trope, I'll say: I'd believe this IF it weren't for the fact that the VAST majority of the time the childhood friend gets screwed. Heck, I LOVE Tamura from Oreimo, I'm one of the very FEW people that likes that character. And a ton of other otaku shows the childhood friend almost always gets "friend-zoned" out. Crying or Very sad

EDIT: (if you're someone that's disgusted by/dislikes the incest angle, then you should also love Tamura. That's not my particular reason for it, but I've got no issues with how she was written anime OR LN, I could watch this over and over: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL6GJFuaIrw )
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zrnzle500



Joined: 04 Oct 2014
Posts: 3767
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 12:38 am Reply with quote
^I actually did like Tamura as well (and other childhood friend characters too), though Kuroneko was my first choice. While they aren't usually the winner, they have been very persistent, so they must be liked to some extent or by enough people. I'm hard-pressed to think of a harem that doesn't have one. Heck some have multiple. And at least outside of harems primarily appealing to imouto moe fans (like OreImo and OniAi), the little sister characters don't really have a better track record than childhood friends, though for different reasons.

That part from the linked clip was very well deserved. Probably the only one who reacted correctly or at least satisfactorily to Kirino's scheme. I used different outlets to vent my frustration with the ending though.
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