Forum - View topicAnswerman - Who Are Subtitles Written For?
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vanfanel
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Regarding "emnetwiht": after a bit of googling, it appears that the term has been cobbled together from:
"emnet" -- a term for "steppe" or "prairie" used in Lord of the Rings (which Tolkien probably derived from Old English roots) and "wiht" -- an Old English term for a living creature I don't have the original LN to check this against, but I'd be willing to bet the author introduced Willem's race as 人間族 (ningen zoku: human tribe), and stuck a furigana reading of エムネトワイト (emunetowaito: emnetwiht) next to it. That way, there'd be no confusion for Japanese fans. At least the ones reading the books or the manga. As for the anime, are they even using "emnetwiht" in the dialog? I've only noticed them saying "ningenzoku." Without some text to look at or some in-dialog explanation, the term would cause the same problem for Japanese viewers that it seems to be causing English speakers. |
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Juno016
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Let it be known that you CAN "learn" Japanese with anime and games and manga and such. Solely learning from one kind of source, even just textbooks, is never a good idea. But taking a bit from everything is very, very helpful, and anime can really immerse a Japanese language learner in ways they cannot get from other sources outside of Japan. I do it when in America just because it keeps my mind on track (languages are easy to jumble and forget over time). Take that from someone actually near-fluent in the language (I speak naturally, but I'm a bit slower with the written language, since I pretty much had to learn that on my own and didn't really gather a passion for it). [EDIT] Also, on the translation of "chuunibyou", it's both cultural and literal in its evolution, but the basic origin is simple: Chuu-ni is "Middle School - 2nd year", the supposed end year where kids tend to roleplay fantasy or believe in fictional stuff with less social embarrassment. Upon hitting their last year, tests become a biiiig focus, taking away a lot of personal indulgence time, and hitting them with a look of their future. And it pretty much just becomes "uncool". Byou is basically just a plastered word for "sickness" in both a literal sense and a figurative sense, like "epidemic" in the West, which can be used to describe real disease spread or just figuratively be used to describe a trend spreading in culture (ie. the anime epidemic). It really just describes some weird thing (not a positive term) that spreads like a sickness, or sticks around like one. And that sounds accurate enough, but really, the word has been used in academic papers to relay the concern of Japan's youth indulging in fantasy over reality, and has been taken semi-seriously, carrying extra connotations of "delusional" and "childish" and other things that were less apparent in its literal usage, but have become apparent in its application here. Thus, the translation of "delusional", while not carrying the full connotation of Japanese, functions just as well when used in the contexts of some anime: Chuunibyou demo Koi ga Shitai!, where "delusions" are basically what the characters are actually indulging in, and the show uses "mousou" (literally "delusion") to describe them often, anyway. Last edited by Juno016 on Sat May 13, 2017 1:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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belvadeer
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Yup, of ignorant helicopter parents who treated anything foreign as something evil and complained to companies to have them covered up or removed entirely. Stupid narrowminded parents.
Agreed. The only reason purists like it that way is because they think they sound cool shouting out the name themselves, but have no idea what they're saying (which is typical of their short-tempered "sub only" ignorance).
Exactly, and yet I've seen some especially stupid purists strongly believe they can actually speak Japanese in this manner rather than opening a textbook to learn the basic rules and to understand it thoroughly (which they claim is a boring "non-anime" way to learn it). It's quite pathetic to see them declare themselves knowledgable about the language when they're relying on a TV show or video game, especially because they're too stubborn and idiotic to realize that people don't talk in real life the way characters do in animated fiction. Having been a teacher myself, it's honestly embarrassing to see many younger folks be this stupid. Don't get me wrong. Watching a show or playing a game in another language is a good way to immerse yourself in it and hear what it sounds like, but it should not be the sole outlet to learning it effectively. |
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Juno016
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It really matters how you present yourself in debate with these sorts of people. They are carrying certain "weeaboo" tendencies that aren't really great, but that passion can be re-directed to actually learning something they care about if approached correctly. For instance, you can certainly let them know that real people don't speak like anime characters do, but you can ALSO tell them HOW to best utilize their learning material of choice. Anime tend to simplify real contexts for its audience to make its characters understandable from the get-go. Sure, not many people in real life speak "ojousama" hyper-polite, honorific, humble speech... but heck if that doesn't mean you now have a chance to learn that speech style without having to attend and strictly study a formal tea ceremony. Sure, the rough-and-tough nasty dudes in anime may speak a more general (and outdated) rough-and-tough language than actual honest-to-god rough-and-tough people, but that sort of language is still quite universal in Japan, so if you care about Japanese entertainment, you most definitely don't want to miss out on it because it is EVERYWHERE. Extra uses of honorifics not normally used in real life can be found in anime BECAUSE it's useful for indicating social relationships and status when introducing characters to each other or the audience. Sure, it's not something you want to necessarily use in real life, but learning a language because you like the entertainment in that language is NOT a wrong reason to learn the language. It's simply not the way to learn how to speak naturally to a Japanese person. So yeah, I can see the cringe in the "weeaboo" attitude. Anyone with any real academic or personal experience in something would feel the same about their forte topic. But rather than distance those sorts of people, encourage them--not by allowing them to do whatever the heck they currently think is right, but by opening up new doors for them to step through. Don't tell them how sweet the fruit is. Place the fruit on the other side of those doors so they'll want to do it themselves. That's... pretty much my philosophy on education. You won't be able to get everyone with it, but it will work on more people than you think if you know what you're doing. |
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belvadeer
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Problem is, some of these cases are simply unteachable moments since they refuse to learn outside of subbed anime or games. Believe me, I try not to shoot down all of these clay pigeons as they obliviously soar through the air. However, many of them just keep on soaring, refusing to come back down to earth and hear anything else, other than whatever they want to. They often mock you and claim you don't know what you're talking about and declare that they do because they watch and play media subbed. |
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relyat08
 Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
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The actual Japanese dialogue says "ningenzoku" and the subs translate that as "emnetwiht". Personally, I don't think it comes across the same, or causes the same problems in the Japanese dialogue at all. Even as someone with an elementary understanding of Japanese so far, I can easily understand what the Japanese is trying to convey by listening to it. "ningen-zoku" is remarkably simple and straightforward. On the other hand, I have to Google search and scour multiple threads to come up with a usable English translation of "emnetwiht" as your comment essentially proves. Ultimately it's up to the author and it doesn't hinder my enjoyment of the show, but I don't think it was a very good or comparable translation choice. |
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Juno016
Posts: 2386 |
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Some cases are certainly stubborn, but many cases tend to be based on pre-conceived suppositions of the teacher's intent to belittle them. Even if one doesn't actually intend to show any disdain toward their attitude, humans are perceptive and they usually see it first glance and put up their defensive barriers quite quickly. From personal experience, I have very little disdain toward kids like that, so I can approach them quite naturally. They look up to me, I give direction, and they follow. Even those who aren't the "follower" types tend to take what I say into personal consideration for their own world views on language and culture. I sound like I'm trying to pat my own back, but I'm confident to say my experiences have at least had encouraging results. It helps to value their views, even without believing in them. My intent isn't really to criticize you as a teacher or anything like that, though. You do you. I just see a lot of "weeaboo" types backing away or asserting themselves more strongly when approached by the "anti-weeaboo" type intending (despite good intentions) to educate them, and this is usually the reason why. They're naive and narrow-minded and they know no better than to assert or protect themselves in defense to a threat to the laws in their lives. If they don't perceive you as a threat, they won't treat your academic knowledge as one either. |
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wmderemer
 It...it's not like I post for you or anything! Posts: 302 Location: Stroudsburg, PA |
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I think some proof of what Justin said about people's tolerance of the unfamiliar becoming better shows in the American (really, worldwide) success of BABYMETAL. People, from casual music fans to hardcore elitist metalheads have overlooked the language barrier in the lyrics (as well as their seemingly non-metal translations, like songs about chocolate) and willingly embraced the band. Many Japanese music acts sadly can only dream of their music being professionally released outside Japan & sold in places like FYE and Best Buy, reaching mainstream appeal. Perhaps BABYMETAL can act as a gateway for fans...
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belvadeer
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It's not like I tell them "Hey ignorant idiot weeb, that's not how Japanese works so shut up and listen" or anything like that. The problem stems from them attacking you first over your preferences for dubs over subs. They're the ones who tend to get confrontational and hostile first with you, not the other way around. I suppose I've had too many cases of this happening due to the entitlement this current generation feels over everything, like wanting subbed anime for free. |
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peno
Posts: 349 |
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@belvadeer
No offence, but if I wanted to learn Japanese language, and my teacher told me that he or she only watches dubs, I would be very wary of their knowledge and grasps of the language. Actually, this already happened to my nephew last September, when his English language teacher admitted that she only watches Czech dubs and she never was in any English speaking country, so, her knowledge of English consists of what she herself learned in school. Turned out many of those ten years olds already knew English better than she did and soon, there were complains on her competency from parents to the school principal, who had to replace her eventually.
Are you sure? In most cases, the translators for subs, and these days often even for dubs, are not credited and neither are editors, so only their employer knows their name and that one will hire them again, because who else would've done it for them for such a low payment. And the anonymity of translators these days may be part of the problem, because if people saw the same name often bound with bad translations, their reputation really may be in stake. But the way it is now, reputation is the last worry of anyone in this business. |
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belvadeer
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You misunderstand. I may prefer dubs, but I do watch subbed anime too, particularly shows that are or were too niche to dub. I know my Japanese to a degree (I can understand about 40% of what's being said without subs), but I'm still trying to increase my knowledge every year. Last edited by belvadeer on Sat May 13, 2017 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18187 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I think you're overlooking one little detail here: hardcore heavy metal lyrics are often nigh-incomprehensible even to someone who fluently speaks the source language, hence a language barrier is less of an issue with music like that. Besides, who really cares much about the lyrics in those kind of songs anyway? I've listened to things like Hungarian death metal before and enjoyed it even though I don't have the faintest clue what the song is actually about. Of course, BABYMETAL also has the advantages of very high production values and the entertainment value of the incongruity between what they look like and sound like vs. the backing music. I will agree with you, though, that they have a better chance of breaking through in the American market than any traditional Japanese idol act. I had one of their songs on during a pre-class countdown earlier this year and a few of my (high school) students actually recognized the group. I'm pretty sure some of them weren't anime fans, too. |
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BadNewsBlues
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Wouldn't learning japanese from anime, games,manga be effectively learning japanese from one source as you're learning it exclusively through various forms of entertainment media?
I don't genuinely believe that to fully be the case as there's still going to be things that's apart of the language that you're not really going to understand simply by watching a screen or reading a comic book. Like regional dialects or slang. I mean I always hear the Kansai dialect is equivalent to a U.S. Southern accent and yet hearing it as a non Japanese speaker it doesn't really sound all that different from the non accented Japanese.
I don't know how anybody could overlook that given how incoherent lyrics are pretty much a staple of metal. |
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Banken
Posts: 1280 |
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No dialect in one language is equivalent to an accent in a completely unrelated language.
All you need to know is that "Kansai/Tohoku/Kyushu dialects are not standard Japanese." On another note, even supposedly professional translations can be *wildly* inaccurate, especially if the translator doesn't have knowledge about the subject matter. The Initial D Fourth Stage Hulu stream subtitles were terrible. Unfortunately, translators are paid by the character/word/page, and anime/manga translation pays very poorly. So the chance that a single translator with no knowledge of, say, cars, will take the time to research whether the engine of a Mazda Miata is a V6 (wrong) or a B6 (right), which sound exactly the same in Japanese, are very low. As a translator who loves anime and manga, anime/manga streaming services don't pay enough for translation to even make it worth my time, unfortunately, so I suspect most translations are done by people no more skilled the average fansubber. That said, I'm sure the BIGGEST anime/manga/game franchises (Gundam, Metal Gear Solid, etc.) actually have a decent budget to assure a perfect translation. But if it's being simulcast, it's probably a mediocre translation. |
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Sakagami Tomoyo
 Posts: 940 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia |
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Whatever the pay, the chance of a translator who isn't a serious car nerd thinking to doubt what sounds like V6 actually being V6 is pretty remote. |
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