Forum - View topicFate/Apocrypha (TV).
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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Fate/Strange Fake isn't being discussed here, but I suppose forum readers are allowed to use nicknames that show off their knowledge of non-canon specimens of the Type Moon universe to the less familiar. I didn't play the game, so I neither know nor care about North American cartoon memes. As far as I'm concerned, that "Go Lion" remark from the student in the first episode wasn't appreciated by Shishigou (The "Go" is written as 劫 which is probably going to mean something to the Necromancer given its Buddhist origin and he looked visibly annoyed at the student's flippant attitude to his name).
Read my argument from last week again. It had two strands, the first one of which appears to be proven wrong based on Mordred's regret at not following through (emotion trumping logic etc.). The second strand of the argument was on Shishigou following through with the game logically by ordering Mordred to cut off the Master's head. I don't think it's been entirely disproved after events, but it also seems rather unlikely if Shishigou allows his Servant a considerable amount of autonomy during battles. It's easily argued (for the emotionally invested) that Mordred did all of the discussed completely of her own volition and with no input from her Master, but I took a different approach and appear to have been proven wrong. I don't regret it, but it hasn't changed my opinion of Mordred and I reject the "good person at the core" hypothesis. Depending on how this War ends, I might revise my opinion or have it confirmed due to events. Personally I wouldn't place too much emphasis in how the Toosaka family acted in Fate/Zero to make a generalisation on the rest of the mage community. Shishigou's motives have not yet been fully explained to date and I'm not sure if he's acting in the same mould as the Toosaka patriarch. On the other hand Emiya Kiritsugu certainly acts in a way contrary to what the "typical mage family" is supposed to work as a stereotype. Not sure if it's supposed to be a joke as described since the Fate universe seems populated with lots of exceptions or "failures" of Mages with only the Toosaka clan behaving as the stereotype indicates. When it comes to the Grail War, almost every mage family encountered to date fails to live up to its "ideal image" in one way or another due to various reasons. But that's just my opinion, which is just as worthless as another's on this topic since the Yggmillenia clan have yet to resolve their little crisis and they're a fully fledged mage family in their own right despite their explusion. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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#15
It's been a while since there was an episode where there was zero action whatsoever and character development took centre stage. Just as well since there might not be much time left before the two camps clash again sending any scenes to character development to the sidelines. Finally viewers get to see why Shishigou is motivated enough to participate in this War. Curiously enough it's for a very traditional reason as far as a cursed Mage family is concerned. The last few posts in this thread have talked about Mages in this series are all "failures", but Shishigou is trying to overturn this imposition on himself and his bloodline by winning the War. If it means playing a lone hand and seizing the Grail under everyone's noses, so be it. Not surprising since there's no dishonour when fighting a War against the odds. Also unsurprising that his supposedly "honourable" servant was thinking the exact same thing. There's already been a heavy hint as to what will happen to Sieg should he transform 3 times and run out of Command Spells. When that happens, it's going to be something drastic which should be decisive in terms of the War's conclusion. I think all of the Servants bar Black Assassin have now revealed their motivations behind their participation. Since the joker pair haven't been seen for some time, it will probably require a few weeks before viewers find out what they want and whether they will play any further part in this War. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13224 |
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I definitely wouldn't say that pulls him out of the "failure" category. I thought it was pretty clear he wanted a family not just for the sake of continuing his mage line, but because he genuinely wants one. His continued mourning of his adopted daughter is proof of this. He didn't just write her off as a failed experiment and move on to the next one. It also explains why he treats Mordred less like his servant and more like his rebellious daughter. And for her part, it was important for Mordred to hear that her master does still care for his daughter. Her own father disregarded her and she probably would have abandoned Voltron if he turned out to be the same. Snatching the Grail out from under the others' noses is a viable strategy but hardly a nefarious scheme. It doesn't void out her good intentions towards Seig in the previous episode like you seem to be suggesting. They aren't planning on poisoning a town or slitting their allies' throats in their sleep or anything. Anyways, it's clear why Voltron and Mordred have such a great relationship, but I don't really get why the other Red servants are so hung up on their old masters. They're the heroic sorts too so I thought they'd more strongly refuse to work with some one shady like Shiro. Well I can understand wanting to stay on the side that actually has the grail and at least they're openly expressing their suspicions instead of blindly following. Going back to the "failure" talk, that's essentially what the conversation between Chiron and Caules was about. Fiore is actually handling her new leadership role pretty well, but she's too softhearted and might not be able to mentally handle taking a life. An ideal mage was supposed to have just treated that dog as a disposable sacrifice. Her getting attached to it is a "failing as a mage." Gordes really surprised me this episode. He's still a douche but he's actually willing to help out with the homunculi. Apparently that his forte. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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No one likes being played like a puppet on strings, certainly not Servants with pedigree as vaunted as the Greek legends of old. They're grudgingly going along with Amakusa's plans because he holds the trump card of the command seals.
Perhaps Mordred won't betray her Master like she did the rest of her compatriots, complex and all. That doesn't preclude any changes which might occur as a result of the war's current trajectory. Both of them are players in the same game and as far as I know it's not possible for both Master and Servant to achieve their wish at the same time because of how the system is set up. The Einzbern jibe from the surviving female homunculus was intended to be a nod at Gordes' speciality. As mentioned way back in the first season, the Yggmillenia clan assembled a hotch-potch of magi with different specialisations but none of them being "world-beaters" according to the Association. He's not as good as the now-deceased Master of Caster at maintaining golems and homunculi but the black camp just has him remaining with that particular field of expertise. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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Well, it kinda happened with Kirei and Gilgamesh. Also it did happen in another franchise installment. But you're right, by design spoiler[the master is supposed to order their servant to kill themselves to complete the grail] but I think that's not necessary to have enough magic power to grant wishes, only spoiler[to reach the origin]. Remember that the grail will manifest itself after enough time passes even if there are other servants left and can be freely used then. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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I think you're missing the point here. The Great Grail is already manifest, just dormant since the competition is technically still in play and it can't yet be activated. As for Amakusa and Gilgamesh, corporeal form does not equate to getting the wish fulfilled. The "other instalment" you talked about had the final two contestants duking it out with each other and one of them DID make a wish. Granted it was with a tainted Grail with two servants still active, but it was enough to deliver an outcome which coincidentally the Masters were discussing over this week's episode. Since it's never actually been described, I'm going to assume the system is working "as intended" in this War and someone is going to have to give ground if it comes down to just one Master and one Servant. Amakusa on the other hand appears to be very confident he can fulfil his fellow Servants' wishes in addition to his own, so he might have learned something based on his class knowledge and several decades thinking through his scheme. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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Actually the "other installment" I mentioned was spoiler[Fate/Grand Order.] There, spoiler[the winning master, who knew the truth, chose not to have his servant kill himself and instead both of them made wishes.] |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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My mistake. No comment on that score. Same writer for this series, but as you'd already mentioned earlier on this thread the two Grail systems are completely different. The whole conversation assumes Mordred and Master are the last pair standing. If they drop out halfway, it'll be someone else facing the dilemma. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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Actually that bit does involve the Fuyuki Grail system. Anyways if it did come down to that at the very least you have to agree they'd be conflicted about it. Their bond is pretty genuine. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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We'll see. No guarantees those two will be the last pair standing. If it came to blows, it should be a win for Mordred if the Master is within sword range. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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#16
They had to deal with this sooner or later and it looks like the time to settle accounts with the rogue Assassin has come. This week is just a skirmish, but I'm betting next week will see the showdown between Ruler + Sieg + Black camp against Jack. While they're at it, viewers will probably get to know what Jack's motivations in this war are and what her Master wants (although I suspect this Master is in the same position as the Master of Caster in Fate/Zero). Interesting side-effect for Sieg each time he borrows his namesake's powers. It looks like his skin is either burnt in patches or transforming slowly into something entirely different. Let's see: Jack's powers include identity obfuscation, acid fog and the ability to blend in and out of the shadows while the fog is in effect. Without detailed info on the Assassin's full powers, it's going to be quite the battle against the odds. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13224 |
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Was pretty worried about Fiore there for a while. Glad nothing happened to her.
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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#17
I thought they were going to end the mini-arc in this week's episode, but it seems I've been proven wrong. It's been bothering me, but Jack uses two pronouns to refer to herself (私&私たち). The latter is only used in the plural, so that might be a clue as to who this Jack REALLY is. The final scene after she'd been powered up by two command spells also hints at something out of the ordinary with this Assassin. It's clear from this episode that Jeanne is falling for Sieg in a big way but she's hiding it behind the facade of her vessel being interested in the homunculus. Unfortunately for her the homunculus in general tend to be emotionally stunted (Sieg admits it himself during his monologue) so he'll need to mature a bit more before he can return her feelings. Regarding pairs, the other one formed over the series is starting to look like an unrequited infatuation. Amakusa is so dedicated to his cause that he wouldn't notice anything else. It appears the other Servants in his camp aren't quite as dense. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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#18
So viewers finally discover the true identity of the Black Faction's Assassin. It's an interesting case as this novel has already tried the same idea once with the Lancer of the same faction. Explains why she always refers to herself in the plural sense in addition to the singular. I'm not sure if it was intended as an afterthought, but viewers find out why the Red Faction's Archer is so hung up with the plight of the children this week. Not an impossible task for the Greater Grail to accomplish should she win, but somewhat unrealistic and naive. The scene with the children falling head-first immediately brings Hoozuki and co. to mind, but I suppose it's deliberate since that is a common depiction of the departed falling into Hell in Japanese art on this subject. I don't know if the post-credits scene was done because the animators ran out of things to do for this week within the time slot or if there really was something like this in the source material. Thanks Shakespeare, formal notice of what's to come is nice. |
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Izanagi009
 Posts: 464 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA |
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Am I the only one who found the Atalanta/Jeanne conversation both poorly shot and pointlessly pretentious.
I feel like Atalanta fell into an emotional trap, tainted by something and so is too compromised to realize that, in the common view of Christian hell, souls that are purified have a chance of going to heaven and being saved. As for the actual art of film itself, i found it to be shot/reverse shot that had no interesting dynamics or visual tricks to the camera or setting to help make it interesting. |
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