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EP. REVIEW: A Centaur's Life


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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23770
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:11 pm Reply with quote
You can usually tell which way the dog whistle is blowing from the source of the blowing. If it is a conservative/alt-right type whining about "PC culture" you can bet it's just some meathead bitching about how hard it is to openly express racism/sexism/etc these days without the dread reprecussion of being called an a-hole.

If it somebody on the left talking about PC culture, it may actually have some merit.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:15 pm Reply with quote
Yttrbio wrote:
Quote:
Moreover, denunciations of “PC culture” are very much a dog whistle for hatred
Well, sometimes. Sometimes they're a dog whistle for fear of a Cultural Revolution. The assumption that talking about the dangers is inappropriate or unhelpful until everything is totally fine suggests that we should be running headlong towards one vision of justice without even stopping to consider some of the other impacts of what we do to other concepts of justice. Sometimes denunciations of racism are a dog whistle for controlling others, and you find yourself wearing a black mask and joining a group beating of a man on the street with a bludgeon that says "No Hate" on it. If you plug your ears to the possibility that some of this stuff is going too far, how will you ever know if it does?


The problem is that the term Gabriella referred to is almost always used as a "put down" or another type of weapon to shut down a debate. People who use the term usually are not using it because they want to discuss something. They are using it to prevent a discussion about something. If you think about it, the term itself refers to a theoretical position in an argument. Thus, it is a terse put down of that particular position rather than engaging in an intellectual debate about that position.

Personally, I have been mostly OK with how the show has addressed issues of discrimination, because it appears to be approaching society's responses to discrimination in a straightforward manner. Whether we would object to those responses is more up to us, but I don't know that I can say that the show is mocking or otherwise satirizing the responses.
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Yttrbio



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:22 pm Reply with quote
It's clearly not being used as a way to avoid conversation here, though. If you've literally never heard any conservative use it as a discussion point as opposed to a "shut up" card, you have a very limited scope of experience with the political spectrum.

More broadly, the argument seems to be "we shouldn't tolerate criticism of PC culture because it is used in a bad way. Well, it's not being used that way here, but we still shouldn't tolerate it just in case someone gets the wrong idea." Which is a closed loop. If there can never be a legitimate criticism of PC culture, because it might empower less legitimate forms, then PC culture is a blank check for control, because it is immune from criticism.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:55 pm Reply with quote
Just to tie this discuss back into the show itself, I feel like there is a real conceptual murkiness going on. A number of times now, there have been references to people being sent to "re-education camps" if found guilty of racism/making objectionable comments, etc. It's hard to interpret that in any way other than "this is what happens when you take anti-racism measures too far." Yet, at the same time, we get episodes like episode 9 that rather simplistically depict the consequences of basing opinions on differences in physical appearances. I really don't get where this show is at.
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joeydoa



Joined: 30 Dec 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:57 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I thought it was pretty basic in terms of Holocaust stories. It engaged in some “look at how bad the camps were” suffering porn,


Wow, I think that is pretty insensitive and inappropriate verbiage for the subject.
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Yttrbio



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:12 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
Just to tie this discuss back into the show itself, I feel like there is a real conceptual murkiness going on. A number of times now, there have been references to people being sent to "re-education camps" if found guilty of racism/making objectionable comments, etc. It's hard to interpret that in any way other than "this is what happens when you take anti-racism measures too far." Yet, at the same time, we get episodes like episode 9 that rather simplistically depict the consequences of basing opinions on differences in physical appearances. I really don't get where this show is at.
Getting a bead on this show's politics has been a losing effort. I don't agree with Gabriella that there's actually a specific message here. The show presents ideas without any judgment in a medium where we're all so used to seeing judgment that we try really hard to figure out what nonexistent judgment is being made. (I remember Theron being driven insane by this in Gunslinger Girl)
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:20 pm Reply with quote
joeydoa wrote:
Quote:
I thought it was pretty basic in terms of Holocaust stories. It engaged in some “look at how bad the camps were” suffering porn,


Wow, I think that is pretty insensitive and inappropriate verbiage for the subject.


The very same thing could be said about a supposedly comedic SOL show about a centaur high school girl's trials and tribulations suddenly decides it's going to depict a Holocaust-like vignette just to come to the conclusion that, "feeling hatred toward a person or group based on physical appearance is bad, mmmkay?"
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Chrono1000





PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:04 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
The problem is that the term Gabriella referred to is almost always used as a "put down" or another type of weapon to shut down a debate. People who use the term usually are not using it because they want to discuss something. They are using it to prevent a discussion about something. If you think about it, the term itself refers to a theoretical position in an argument. Thus, it is a terse put down of that particular position rather than engaging in an intellectual debate about that position.
Agreed, dog whistle is just a secular way of calling someone a heretic. It is a way to demonize someone in order to avoid talking about the merits of their argument. Granted it is not a new thing and even Socrates had to deal with personal attacks.

Blood- wrote:
Just to tie this discuss back into the show itself, I feel like there is a real conceptual murkiness going on. A number of times now, there have been references to people being sent to "re-education camps" if found guilty of racism/making objectionable comments, etc. It's hard to interpret that in any way other than "this is what happens when you take anti-racism measures too far." Yet, at the same time, we get episodes like episode 9 that rather simplistically depict the consequences of basing opinions on differences in physical appearances. I really don't get where this show is at.
A Centaur's Life is nuanced. That people are sent to correctional clinics even for violating minor laws is about the issue of using tyranny to enforce tolerance. The question this show is looking at is how a society can have both freedom and tolerance at the same time. The show is taking a long look at that question and how various societies have tried to answer that question.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:11 pm Reply with quote
And is a supposedly comedic SOL about a centaur girl's high school trials and tribulations the best - or even an appropriate - vehicle for that kind of question? I am a person who often defends the way anime mixes seriousness and goofiness, but it doesn't always mesh. Sometimes the one quality does detract from the other and for me at least this show is in that territory. Not to mention that I don't find its methods for examining these questions particularly sophisticated nor do I get a sense the show has a sure handle on its material.
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zztop



Joined: 28 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:18 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
And is a supposedly comedic SOL about a centaur girl's high school trials and tribulations the best - or even an appropriate - vehicle for that kind of question? I am a person who often defends the way anime mixes seriousness and goofiness, but it doesn't always mesh. Sometimes the one quality does detract from the other and for me at least this show is in that territory. Not to mention that I don't find its methods for examining these questions particularly sophisticated nor do I get a sense the show has a sure handle on its material.


Ep 9 illustrates the manga’s tonal whiplash, where the themes could simply change just like that between chapters.
From a SOL chapter with Hime & friends, the mangaka would suddenly shift gears into a sociopolitical/racial commentary chapter (like this one), go into Antartican conspiracies the next, then return to SOL once more.
Apparently it’s why the original fantranslators refused to continue doing the manga (apart from the official licensing).
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joeydoa



Joined: 30 Dec 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:20 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
joeydoa wrote:
Quote:
I thought it was pretty basic in terms of Holocaust stories. It engaged in some “look at how bad the camps were” suffering porn,


Wow, I think that is pretty insensitive and inappropriate verbiage for the subject.


The very same thing could be said about a supposedly comedic SOL show about a centaur high school girl's trials and tribulations suddenly decides it's going to depict a Holocaust-like vignette just to come to the conclusion that, "feeling hatred toward a person or group based on physical appearance is bad, mmmkay?"


The holocaust vignette was a memory of the official who was meeting the episode's protagonist and is key in explaining the character's intolerance for discrimination. In the reviewer's case disparaging the serious of the subject at hand, in this case the suffering at the concentration camp as something the viewer watches for pleasure is a total disconnect between thought and expression. Also, feeling hatred toward a person or group based on physical appearance is bad.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:31 pm Reply with quote
Yttrbio wrote:
It's clearly not being used as a way to avoid conversation here, though. If you've literally never heard any conservative use it as a discussion point as opposed to a "shut up" card, you have a very limited scope of experience with the political spectrum.

More broadly, the argument seems to be "we shouldn't tolerate criticism of PC culture because it is used in a bad way. Well, it's not being used that way here, but we still shouldn't tolerate it just in case someone gets the wrong idea." Which is a closed loop. If there can never be a legitimate criticism of PC culture, because it might empower less legitimate forms, then PC culture is a blank check for control, because it is immune from criticism.


Like I said, I don't have a particular problem with how the show is presenting these issues because it is trying to present issues without an obvious bent. We can all decide whether we like what is happening and how relevant it is to the real world.

My point was that the concern about the useage of "pc" is a legitimate concern, particularly in an Internet setting. We all know why ANN has censored a particular three letter word starting with "S." And yea, I have had countless debates with conservatives and people of various political sttipes. The "pc" term is virtually always used as a put down of a particular argument on tolerance or equality. Someone will put forth such a position and the other will say "You're just being PC!!! Na na na na na na!" (Taunting sound optional.) Or, in the abstract, people will comment about the ideal of another group and say "they are pc!! Haha, how stupid are they!" Or, as you have done here, vague undefined references to "pc culture" are made.

I don't think that is being done here with the show itself, but at the same time I can totally see how people on the internet might interpret that and claim it as evidence about the evils of their enemies.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:32 pm Reply with quote
@ joeydoa - I think you are missing Gabriella's point. Her comments were not intended to disparage the seriousness of the Holocaust as a topic nor that there were viewers who would take pleasure in watching the suffering depicted in the Holocaust section. She was commenting on how the show handled the material.

@zztop - well, one thing I'll say is that the show satisfies that feeling of, "yep, I'm never gonna see something like this any where else." I think that's a fairly superficial feeling to evoke, but it is something.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:46 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
@ joeydoa - I think you are missing Gabriella's point. Her comments were not intended to disparage the seriousness of the Holocaust as a topic nor that there were viewers who would take pleasure in watching the suffering depicted in the Holocaust section. She was commenting on how the show handled the material.

@zztop - well, one thing I'll say is that the show satisfies that feeling of, "yep, I'm never gonna see something like this any where else." I think that's a fairly superficial feeling to evoke, but it is something.


The Holocaust is always a very difficult topic to handle. There's no way around that. It is rarely if ever addressed head on in anime. I can't remember the last time myself. Personally I thought it was tasteful here.

Even though this is slice of life, I'm totally fine with that side story. It brings a sense of realism and makes the story more relatable to real world issues of discrimination.
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Yttrbio



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:28 pm Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
My point was that the concern about the useage of "pc" is a legitimate concern, particularly in an Internet setting. We all know why ANN has censored a particular three letter word starting with "S." And yea, I have had countless debates with conservatives and people of various political sttipes. The "pc" term is virtually always used as a put down of a particular argument on tolerance or equality. Someone will put forth such a position and the other will say "You're just being PC!!! Na na na na na na!" (Taunting sound optional.) Or, in the abstract, people will comment about the ideal of another group and say "they are pc!! Haha, how stupid are they!" Or, as you have done here, vague undefined references to "pc culture" are made.
If you're talking about the specific phrase "PC Culture," it's a complete non sequitur to this discussion. The anime didn't use it. Gabriella used it, but I understood her to refer to the ideas behind criticism of PC culture (or calling out culture, or whatever else you want to call the social policing of language to advance justice), which are present in the anime. It sounds like the caliber of your political discussions sucks, though, because I don't run into the same problems with the phrase you seem to.
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