Forum - View topic(The) Ancient Magus' Bride (TV).
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TymersRealm
Posts: 93 |
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Episode 2
Rather nice in the pacing of Ch 2 & about a 1/3 of Ch 3. The intros of Angie and the Priest were decent enough. I know there'll be some complaints of the visual shifts during the segments in Angie's shop, but that's a part of the Manga's charm as well. About the only thing that bothered me was the padding of Chise & Elias' return home. Don't get me wrong, I thought the scenes were beautiful, I'm just not sure this is gonna be a good thing all the way through. Episode 3 is gonna be real fun. |
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Dessa
 Posts: 4438 |
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Sadly, this is something that is going to confuse people, thanks to CR's translation. Seven Seas' translation is much better, with mage/magus vs alchemist.
The difference is, is that mages can use magic and work with neighbors to enact it. Alchemists/sorcerers can't use magic, and use science to recreate it. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2842 |
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It's not that difficult for those familiar with the language. It's a similar distinction made in the Dungeons and Dragons franchise and by Type Moon, only with different connotations attached to the two terms. 魔術: Magic. Can be learnt by those with talent for it. Focuses on techniques to bend the rules of reality. 魔法: Sorcery. Can be learnt but only by those with the innate talent (different skill set to Magic and it's implied one cannot do both). Harnesses the powers and abilities of beings like fairies and spirits to alter reality completely. More powerful than Magic but less versatile and constrained by the lack of candidates gifted enough to learn the craft. Regardless of the terms used, it's clear both branches are mutually exclusive and have different end-products despite being "learnt". I'm not familiar with the series but I thought the episode made the distinction clear enough during Angelica's explanation. |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I was thinking it was kind of explained the other way. Sorcery takes magical nature and turns it into a science, probably things like formulae and the like. While magic is done via the aid of magical creatures like fairies, like drawing on their power, Chise being suited to this due to her connection to them. Not really relevant to the show, but since mentioned I do also have my head around what the types of magic are in D&D, where a wizard understands the methodical nature of magic allowing to manipulate the world, which would be this show's sorcerer. The D&D sorcerer draws on some sort of magical nature in their body like other magical creatures, while the warlock draws on the magical nature of some other magical being, which kind of seems what magus are in this show. Although also hearing the words, it kind of sounds like "sorcery" in this show could easily called alchemy.
And does not look like the neighbours are very fond of a man of the church. Well I guess supposed depictions of the devil were taken from such things as pagan beliefs and the like. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2842 |
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Again it comes down to what people translate 魔術 and 魔法 to English. I prefer Magic for the former and Sorcery for the latter. Elias is an example of an exponent of the latter. Some here call him an "alchemist" or the titular "Magus". I prefer terms I've seen before and are more comfortable with. Those unhappy with what the show's translators have used for their technical terms can always revert to their translated source material. Everyone else actually posting on this thread simply needs to make the distinction between the two different kinds of magic users (simple way would be "Elias magic" vs. "non-Elias magic") I don't understand why "alchemy" is considered acceptable as a translation since it's not clear all 魔法使い delve into medicine creation like Elias. His colleague Angelica is a craftswoman and makes a living out of it. Even the Japanese term for alchemy (錬金術) doesn't really match what Elias is capable of. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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You are a 1,000% wrong. In common English language magic and sorcery are completely synonymous terms. I thought the in world explanation for the distinction was relatively clear but I did roll my English language eyes at the use of synonyms. Alchemist is better but still not great. Personally, I would have preferred if the distinction was made crystal clear: magic is magic and science is science. Grimoire of Zero recently pulled the same stunt in trying to distinguish between "magic" and "socrcery." They're the same bloody thing, fcs. I don't understand this need to overcomplicate matters. The one thing I would say is that, in a general useage sense, there can be a bit of difference between magic and sorcery in that there is sometimes a pejorative sense to the word sorcery. Sorcery can imply magic that is used for ill. But it's still magic. In any case, I really enjoyed the episode. Elias's friend's reaction to how he was dealing with Chise was hilarious. Looking forward to seeing how Chise fares with her dragon kidnapper. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2842 |
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http://www.dictionary.com/browse/magic?s=t http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sorcery?s=t It's not the Oxford dictionary, but for two completely synonymous terms it's SO surprising that the former is more widely used because of its multiple meanings and wider application while the latter is limited to just one definition (which curiously enough ties in with the magic Elias and those of his kind employ). Ultimately I'm not really bothered about what English terms are used since there's a distinct difference in the Japanese terms. Getting told off by someone on a high horse with sentences like "You are a (sic) 1000% wrong" is pure irony. Edit: Found the free online version of the Oxford English Dictionary. Again Sorcery has a specific connotation with harmful black magic, while magic itself is the broader term. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/magic https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sorcery |
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Dessa
Posts: 4438 |
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The thing is, as defined in the manga, Alchemists/sorcerers cannot do magic. They use science to make magic-like effects. And Angelica is a mage, just like Elias. They're not different. That's what my problem is. By English understanding, "alchemist" is the proper word, as alchemists use science to do "magic".
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2842 |
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Again, it comes down to what people translate 魔術 and 魔法 into. Elias and Angelica are practitioners of the latter, which is what you translate as mage whereas "sorcery" as translated by whoever does the English translations of the originals refers to 魔術. I switch the terms around, but don't really care since I don't use the English terms as my point of reference (this is a Japanese series after all). Alchemy DOESN'T mean the application to do "magic". The word itself is from the Arabic, which was also a loanword from the original Greek which had the original meaning of "transmutation of metals". Alchemy (like what Isaac Newton used to do in his spare time away from composing his gravity treatise and what the nameless inventor of gunpowder accidentally created when attempting to create the elixir of immortality) is essentially the precursor to modern chemistry. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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There is no irony in my using a "high horse" tone with you since I did it quite deliberately. You post like that quite often. I don't think I'm the only one at ANN who finds you often obnoxious when responding to other people's posts. Please enjoy having your habitual posting style directed back at you.
And - as is frequently the case with you - you are missing my point. Your claim that it wouldn't be difficult for those familiar with "the language" (presumably you are referring to English) to understand the distinction that the world of The Ancient Magus' Bride places on magic and sorcery is completely wrong. TAMB has created an in-world explanation that attaches a scientific element to the word sorcery that does not exist in general real world English useage. The fact that D&D and/or Type Moon allegedly do something similar is irrelevant since we are talking about general English useage. The definitions you provided indicate what I noted in my original post: there is a negative connotation to sorcery, but they both refer to magic. If TAMB had made the distinction that magic was used for good purposes and sorcery for evil, then it would be in line with general English useage for those terms. Attaching a scientific angle to sorcery is likely to be confusing to English speakers, although as I say, the in-world explanation was pretty straightforward. To sum up, my "high horse" tone is not ironic because a) you were 1,000% wrong in contending those familiar with "the language" would not be confused by TAMB's distinction between magic and sorcery and it's not ironic I should use it with you of all people. I'm happy to enrich your word power! 
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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Alchemist, as I said earlier, is still not great but it is better than sorcerer if you are adapting for a general English-speaking audience. I don't even like to call alchemy a "pseudo-science" since there is no science in it all but calling it a pseudo-science isn't completely off-base. Therefore, it makes more sense to a general English-speaking audience than sorcery does with respect to the concept that the adaptation of TAMB is trying to convey.
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2842 |
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The language I was referring to was Japanese. I'm not the only one who can relate to the differences in this series based on what has been used before elsewhere in different circumstances. Using the word "alchemy" to invoke the "science" aspect of the two differences branches of magic is at best misleading and at worst completely wrong. I have read treatises in alchemy and they DO have scientific elements in them, just not up to the standards of the 21st century and certainly not in line with what is considered the scientific method established over the last two centuries. Regardless, alchemy based on its etymological meaning as "the art of transmutation of metals" renders it an inappropriate choice for 魔法. But I don't care and don't give a fig for the opinions of users who can't even type out proper sentences without typos. I'll just differentiate it as "Elias, Angelica and Friends Magic" and "Other Magic" if I'm going to talk about the two in this thread. Typing in the original Japanese terms is quicker, but the administrators are allergic to anything not written in English in the posts as per the rules. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23769 |
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@ Harlyquin - okay, I now understand that I was misunderstanding you. When you referred to "the language" above, I thought you were referring to English. This is a somewhat understandable misinterpretation on my part because Dessa's post, which you were responding to, was related to how a English-speaker could be confused by TAMB's distinction between magic and sorcery. Now I know you were referring to Japanese as "the language" and I am in no position to comment on that as I don't speak or write Japanese.
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yuna49
 Posts: 3804 |
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Regardless of what is "correct," as Blood- said, the show has attached specific meanings to the words it is using. Whether they conform to some external definition doesn't really much matter as long as the translators stay consistent with the choices they have made.
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15462 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Except there is an official translation, and I don't see it changing unless they decide to rename the series "The Ancient Sorcerer's Bride". You just have to accept that "magus" and "magic" refers to what Elias does, and sorcerer has been decided for the science side approach. Correcting me on what the Japanese language is technically doing is moot at this point. |
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